#4 - The Bruins fall, The Celtics thrive & The Red Sox are terrible

Craig D'Alessandro : 0:24

On this episode of the SNSW podcast the Boston Bruins have officially been eliminated from the Stanley Cup playoffs, we'll discuss the drastic moves are necessary, as many members of the Bruins core face an uncertain future we next discussed the Boston Celtics who are headed in the complete opposite direction, as they take a two games to nothing lead over the top seeded the Toronto Raptors. Finally we break down the Boston Red Sox disasters 2020 season and break down the trade deadline moves that could help with the start of the Rebuild of a once thriving franchise. All that more, but it's all relative. And welcome to Episode Four of the SNSW Podcast. I am Craig D'Alessandro executive producer of the SNSW network. And this is your first time finding us Welcome, we're thrilled to have you here with us. The SNSW podcast is a one hour weekly two hour monthly podcast recapping the biggest stories in the world of sports with the New England flavour. The show notes and transcript of today's episode can be found in our description box below, as well as our WordPress and buzzsprout pages. If this is your first time finding us, please consider subscribing. It's easiest way to see when we publish new episodes. We're on iTunes, Spotify, Google and wherever you generally get your podcasts. Be sure to rate us and leave a review of any of our shows. We always appreciate your feedback. On this episode, we have Bob Kelly, Michael, Marcangelo and our host for this episode is Joe Malkin. And Joe the focus of today's show is the NBA and NHL playoffs. We'll touch on some baseball as well. But as we lead off with the Boston Bruins being eliminated in the second round of the Stanley Cup playoffs. A lot of the conversation around them has been that this may be the end of the road for this core group of players. If that's true, I think history will remember them as a team that was really good, but should have been great. They won won Stanley Cup in 2011 They lost two Stanley Cups in 2013 and 19. They won two presidents trophies they lost in the second round and both of those occasions and they had five games seven losses. They were all on home ice with one of those being with the Stanley Cup at the TD Garden.

Joe Malkin : 2:40

I'm blown away by that intro Great job. My name is Joe Malkin. I am joined tonight by Michael Mark Angelo and Bob Kelly. We set up before we started recording guys, this is kind of a an old school lineup here for the ss w podcast, which is exciting. We do miss rayshawn and Dave tonight, but we're gonna try and wrap up the Boston Bruins season and talk about the Boston Celtics who just took a two Oh, lead against the Raptors. And we'll be playing game three Thursday night. Bye, guys. Welcome in how you guys doing?

Michael Marcangelo : 3:15

I'm doing good Joe. I'm super excited to talk about the Bruins. I mean, I just can't believe that it's over like this. But I think it is. And I'll kind of save that for when you when you enter into the actual topic.

Joe Malkin : 3:29

Bobby, what's going on man?

Rob Kelly : 3:30

much guys How we doing? I'm with Mike on this. I can't I can't even start to begin to describe my feeling of disappointment with this team and it's something that's been going on you guys know for the past 10 1015 years. I just can't believe this is how it ended but like like Mike said, we'll we'll get to that in a minute.

Joe Malkin : 3:53

You know, let's I mean, let's kick it off there. Let's talk about this series and what happened, what went wrong? You know, we all we all know what happened in the first round of the playoffs. Tuukka rask leaves the Boston Bruins opps out of the rest of the season. Yaroslav Halak is, of course, named the starting goalkeeper. They'd signed Dan Vladar I believe it was mid game. I can't remember which series it was, but they They signed them in like the they announced the signing of the contract in like the second period of whatever game that was the Bruins win kind of convincingly in game 1 3-2. I mean, I say kind of because it wasn't. I mean, it's not like they blew the lightning out of the water. The lightning are clearly a very good hockey team because in game two, I think was where I realized this season was probably either going to go seven games, or the Bruins were just going to be knocked out in five or six Reason being Tampa forced overtime in that game, and then ended up winning in overtime. And I know we all watched game three, which was just an absolute railroading of the Bruins, and that that's where I want to go back to is that game two game three. What what happened here, guys well, in your mind what what went wrong in this series for the Bruins.

Rob Kelly : 5:25

So I, in my opinion, I think it all started with that game one. I know we touched on it last week when we talked about this, but if that game went another minute, that's a tie game. And I think that's really where it started tilting downhill from there. The Bruins did everything they could in game two to keep up with them. They did. They went to overtime, they lost in close fashion. But even in that game, too. You could feel the lightning. We're just a better hockey team. They were executing better their passes were crisper. They were crossing the blue line faster. They got out on their plates. They were they were playing their hockey game, and the Bruins were just trying to keep up. Game three was just an absolute shellacking with dark haven net and and it was funny my buddy texted me and said, uh, it's it's Darth Vader time. And then within seven minutes, he texted me just went never been. So it was just kind of like, you could just feel the momentum of this team going out and It is kind of fitting the way it ended with this team because this is what's been happening with them like we said, since I can even remember opportunity after opportunity, and they just either don't put the puck in the right place. They run into a hot goalie or or they just run out of steam and you can see it looks like they have cement blocks on their feet.

Joe Malkin : 6:46

If I gave us the rundown to go off the the point you just made there this is kind of the the theme with the Boston Bruins Craig ran ran through it in the intro of their resume since they won the Stanley Cup in 2011. And it's not been friendly to go along with with your theme here, Bob and I'll let you get back to your point. And I guess there's a I was gonna wait a little bit longer to get into this. But what why, you know, maybe we should wait so let's hold this question to the end but we'll tease it a little bit. Is that what they call a big market tease? What Why? Why has it been going the way it has?

Michael Marcangelo : 7:26

Well, before Bobby goes, I just think it's really interesting that a person that a week ago said that the Bruins are going to be on their way to a Stanley Cup victory after their game. One win against Tampa Bay is now saying that this is exactly what he expected from the Bruins. But when you think about it, the Bruins gave Tampa Bay, everything they had. And they barely squeaked out of the game one win if that game goes 30 more seconds, it's over. The momentum was totally in Tampa Bay's way. I think I think they just ran into a team that was faster. That was way more skilled. And that really forced the fourth the fourth check ons it Zdeno Chara, who is you know, 43 years old, couldn't quite keep up with the people that he used to keep up with. And it just really showed our glaring gaps of talent. And I think, you know, we can talk about this a little more. The fact that they're number one goaltender gave up on them. The series before greatly in Tied to them Bruce Cassidy said it last night in an interview that it is weighing on the players. If you're number one guy gives up on you how does that not eat away at you when you get down? After after a game two loss after a game three shellacking? How do you not let it sink into your head that well, he already left maybe he was onto something.

Rob Kelly : 8:43

And and I think you know that to go even further off that same exact point when it comes to what marshawn said after the game too. You heard him he said it maybe this was all just a waste of time. And I do think Mike, you're right that that did get in their heads a little bit to go back to, you know, my highs and lows of being a Bruins fan. It's, it's just something that when it comes to this team, those highs are so high and they look so good. And it's something that you know, again, this has been the trend when they're on. They are the best hockey team in the NHL, and they've been that way for the past 10 years. But when they're off it's the most frustrating if they're missing. passes, they always make. They're missing the goals. Brad marshawn misses more empty nets than any hockey player I've ever seen in my entire life when he's off, when he is on, he could do anything. But it just wasn't happening this series and again, that seems to be happening more often than not with this team. When it boils down to it,

Joe Malkin : 9:43

Marshall showed glimpses in this series, and it was at times refreshing to see him play the way he was playing. But going back to the the hurricane series, and to what Mike just said, about Tuuka Rask, leaving the team, he gave up on him, and I, myself included, there was a lot of people that were like, well screw him, you know, we'll win despite him, right? Yeah. And I know that's kind of where you were gonna go, but you know, we'll win despite him. It happened at first, and then it seems like the wind was completely taken out of their sails. I don't know if it was because of the bad play. But the Bruins, you know, again, and I thought they had won a little more handily in game one than then Bobby thinks they did. And I think it's because I expected Tampa to come in and be as fast and skilful as they were. So to me, that was kind of a handled game for the Bruins, and game to just really turn it around and game three cemented it, that maybe it was just all a waste of time. But what mental effect did did that have? Did Touka leaving have on the goaltenders? That that's one thing I don't understand. I mean, that your time to shine.

Michael Marcangelo : 11:10

I think that right now we're in a situation where two could being there would not have changed the outcome of this series right at all. Because the ticker that was there in this this postseason, or this bubble could have get like couldn't have cared any less. about what was happening on the ice. What it did do, though, was show you that one of your leaders didn't care that this was the last year of the run that they signed up for in 2011. It showed you that, you know, I understand that there's a whole lot of things happening out in the world right now. I get it. But if we just talked about and sports terms and your team terms, he quit. And he didn't care about how about it being chairs last stand. And I just want to like go back to some that Bobby said, you said like when when the Bruins are on to the best team in the NHL, based on what aside from 2011 one is that ever mattered or meant anything?

Rob Kelly : 12:06

It hasn't. And that's and that's the problem. That's that's the biggest problem with this team. And again, it's been going on for years. You go back to last year, where they went to game seven of the cup, they're on their on their on that game seven, they were off and that game was over within that first period. You go back to when we lost in 13 they were on their amazing. They went to three overtimes with the Blackhawks. They come within three minutes of forcing that game seven, they give up that one bad goal and it is over from there. It's just with this team. It feels like they they they're so resilient sometimes. And then sometimes they are the softest hockey team in I can't say I've ever watched because this is honestly the only core I've ever really experienced as a diehard Bruins fan.

Michael Marcangelo : 12:59

But to your point, Joe, the the ripple effect of Tuukka leaving was that it made Halak have to play far better than he actually is. Right. He is a very good number to win two cars in that room. They have one of the best one, two combinations, but there's a reason he's not a number one anymore. That's true. So not only did I mean we can talk about Leaving until like the cows come home. But what he did is he put his team that was already probably not the most skilled team, not the fastest team behind the eight ball even more because now the one thing that you could always turn back and say that they had was a number one elite goaltender, and he took his ball and he went home and he left Halak. They're just standing in the crease making saves that he didn't have any business making last night and he made some incredible saves, but he should have never been put in that position.

Joe Malkin : 13:52

So the series the Bruins are bounced in five. And we're talking about a 43 year old Chara, a aging Bergeron, really in aging goalkeeper in Tuukka Rask aging more mentally than physically, you know, in a lot of ways is it seems like he doesn't want to be here. So my overall question here is what's next. But to the point of what Bobby just said. It's kind of how they've always Ben, sometimes they're resilient, but a lot of the times are not and Mike, to go with your theme, why did Chara stick around this long char is not a soft guy. He's a competitor, we know he's a competitor. So why did he stick around so long if they were, for lack of anything else, a regular season team, so why did he stick around so long?

Michael Marcangelo : 14:50

Because I think there was enough of that core from 2011 left that made him believe that they still had a shot like when it was nut cut in time that enough of them could stand up and do the right thing and get one more. Chara was not a liability, right? I mean, no by any stretch of the imagination he did as much as he possibly could for his age. But, I mean, I think that this team, we regarded as one of the best Big Bad Bruin teams because of what they did nine years ago and less about what they've done recently.

Rob Kelly : 15:23

I think Coming into this year, they were one of the I mean, coming into the playoffs. They're one of the favorites. They were the best team in the regular season. But But I do want to go back to the Zdeno point because there's one thing that I will never, I'll never understand is how this man kept this level of play for this long. I remember in 2013 when they lost that cup to the Blackhawks I was already calling for Daniel's head doesn't 2013 he looks slow. He reinvented his game and turned into still one of the best defensive players in the National Hockey League and he is 43 years old. That man has been the best defensive player I've ever seen on the Bruins, and he's been that way since 2011. And I think that's just a testament to like you said how competitive and how amazing he really is. This is one of the saddest moments I've ever seen. is seeing him scared off that ice last night. He didn't even wait for his teammates. He He was so dejected he was so you could see that him that he knew that this may be it and he just left the ice and it was it was a very sad moment for me

Michael Marcangelo : 16:32

When you think when you think about it, right like if his career in Boston ends like this, he just skated off the ice for the last time after losing four straight games to a team with no fans and attendance. Like I can't imagine like the feeling like if this is actually it, how alone he must feel because he did everything he possibly could to make that team better. There's no real I mean, it's it's not a coincidence that McAvoy is becoming more of a leader and a better defenseman because char is still there. Yeah, well recruit gives a better is a better defenseman, because Chara is still there, Chara might be gone now Krug is going to be gone because we're not going to pay him what he wants. And so this this was the last year of that of that entire run. I will go on the record and say it if they do make a run at a cup again, it won't be because of the of the core guys. They're going to have to do a lot to reinvent that team and reinvent that roster.

Joe Malkin : 17:28

So that that's the next point is Is this the end of the era, which I think the three of us can agree on. This is kind of the end of that 2011 core and I want to go another step further after this. But here's the list of Bruins free agents following the 2020 season. Anders Bjork, Jake Debrusk Joakim Nordstrom. Zdeno Chara Matt Grzelcyk Torey Krug, Jaroslav Halak. solaric ganja, Coleman, Richie senyshyn Miller, Sbarro Lagasse I mean, yeah, sure, once you get to the bottom of that list, like Zach Senyshyn probably doesn't belong here in any anyway, but Kevin Miller is on that list, Torey Krug, Matt Grzelcyk Zdeno Chara. So one question is and Mike you answered it already. But Bobby, do they spend the money on Torey Krug and is he worth it

Rob Kelly : 18:22

given the track record of The Bruins in the past they don't pay him. They're not in the business of paying. Offensive defenseman. It seems like I think McAvoy is gonna be a different exception because I think McAvoy is a whole different ballgame altogether, but we've seen it pass duggie Hamilton. I think they follow that route. I don't see Tori crew back in a Bruins uniform. I don't see him being worth the money that he's gonna get because he is going to get top dollar as a great offensive defenseman. I just don't think he's worth it, considering all the other holes that we do need to fill so I don't see him back in the Raiders uniform.

Joe Malkin : 18:59

So looking at this list real quick it is. The one year extension for Halak is for 21. And Anders Bjork signed a three year $4.8 million extension so those guys are tied up for next year. And Bjork for 21 22 and 23. Mike, what are your thoughts on Krug you've kind of already given us them yeah.

Michael Marcangelo : 19:19

So I think like you try and pay him as much as you possibly Can I think there's gonna be a team out there that gives him a deal that's like four years for $35 million and I don't know if you can do that right I don't know if you can do that. However, if you can trade that softer than shit goal that you have to grasp and free up some cap space and get some get some draft equity then yes you pay torey Krug whatever he wants to stay and you build that defensive core around krug and McAvoy and you get young again, you stop relying on David Kreji and and I love Patrice Bergeron, but he's 35 or 36 years old, right? You have to get other people in there.

Rob Kelly : 20:01

As much as I hate to say it every time we get to the end of these playoff runs. You hear all these stories about how beat up that core was every single time so it is time to get some use in here, but I just don't see it. I don't see Tori crude being worth that money. I think you're better off spending it on another top notch goalie spending it on another winger For pasinex spending an on another top notch center to match on that top line with them, because I mean, it is time to break this up. So I just think cribs another one of those pieces where, you know, what are we doing here? Let's get younger, let's get faster was changed us up.

Michael Marcangelo : 20:42

Also one last thing I don't want to go too far back into the into the time volunteer if you had Tyler Seguin , you would have been able to compete with Tampa Bay, there is a real possibility that Tyler Seguin is going to win a cup before you do again. And imagine all the talent that you had, and you go to two more you can't win one. And this guy is in Dallas with the three ones with the three one series lead right now. They got trounced the other night five goals in the first period, but he's playing electric and what did you get for him? Do you remember what we got for Tyler saying that that's still here?

Joe Malkin : 21:18

isn't much?

Michael Marcangelo : 21:20

Nothing.

Joe Malkin : 21:21

Nothing. Loui

Rob Kelly : 21:22

Eriksson Loui Eriksson was the big piece of that trade that that was the big person for that trade. And he hasn't been here in five years.

Michael Marcangelo : 21:31

We drafted Dougie Hamilton.

Joe Malkin : 21:35

So let me expand on on that conversation right there. The Tyler Seguin trade is, in a lot of ways, what started a lot of the tumble in my mind, to where we are now. And maybe it's a loss of faith in management. And I'm not going to go as far as cam Neely, because I think cam with his standing within the organization, he's been around Boston for a long time. I don't necessarily disagree with a lot of the moves he's made. But at the same time, you can't make a Tyler Seguin trade or a Tyler Seguin like trade and then not try and wrap up your guys for the future. I'm with Mike that you you got to pay Krug. The money that he wants, but here's my hot take on this one. I think Bruce Cassidy's time in Boston is over. I think he should be let go. And they need to bring in a new coach, because I think part of the problem starts with him. And I've said this since the beginning. And I know that the big thing when they hired him was that he was already in the organization. He was in Providence. I mean, he's, he's been an NHL coach before, but he's a system guy in that way where they wanted him to come up and carry on basically what code Julian had done here, but that got stale. So we've been watching kind of the same team for the last nine years in a lot of aspects of the game of hockey and Boston Bruins hockey. I think he's got to go.

Michael Marcangelo : 23:16

If you don't have Bruce Cassidy is your coach. You do not have the young emerging emerging talent that you currently do on the Boston Bruins. Remeber Claude Julian close. He would rather play yamir younger than give any rookie or young emerging talent a chance. I mean, it listen if we're going to rebuild and if this is really the end of it, blow it up and and really focus on you Dallas did it right? They ought they offloaded Loui Eriksson for Tyler Seguin . . And and look, there's they're still in it. years later they're back.

Joe Malkin : 23:52

They're still in it but you talk about why. If you're going to get rid of Bruce Cassidy, then you wouldn't have the young players here. Well, we're still talking about an ageing Bruins team, aren't we? We're talking about a 30 something year old goaltender who just jumped ship. We're talking about Patrice Bergeron, who's 35 David Krecji, who's in his early 30s Zdeno Chara, who's in his 40s short, they have Charlie Coyle, they have torey Krug, they have these young guys, but you're still talking about a core that's big, so it's already gonna be rebuild, so why not rebuild that the coaching position? I mean maybe this is my personal bias it's kind of like the john Henry effect on me. But I think if if you are going to blow it up blow it up at that aspect as well bring somebody in who's who's going to because I don't think Cassidy works with the younger guys and I know he's an AHL guy and I know he coached in the minor leagues of hockey but I don't think he's the guy for that job

Rob Kelly : 24:51

yet. No, I I'm with Mike on this one. I have to disagree with you here just because when it comes to Cassidy, he brought that skill element element back to this team. He brought that playmaker element back Will you remember under Claude how painful that dump and chase approach was? He gave up. He gave up Tyler Sagan to pursue that dump and chase. Alright, you bring in Cassidy. Now we have Debrusk David Pastrňák . We have McAvoy, XL and we have all these young playmakers who are excelling. I am with my GRE. I think you really doubled On that you get these young playmakers in here, you you develop them underneath Cassidy and they become the the stars that they can become.

Joe Malkin : 25:32

But if they're excelling and they're performing Why did we just get knocked out in five games against the Tampa Bay Lightning when we we should have all this talent this fast, dynamic tactical talent but now we're sitting here praising the 43 year old and so so what what's that conversation and and why? Why would we stick to this guy what is what is he actually proven because again we're talking about a core that besides Sagan I mean it was all built on to Julian, wasn't it? So what what is he actually done if we're praising the 43 year old defenseman,

Michael Marcangelo : 26:12

Claude Julian and Bruce Cassidy are coaches. They do not pick the players. They are given the players by Peter Chiarelli or Don Sweeney, Peter Chiarelli, placated into Cloud Julian system where He just did the the, you know, the the dump in and chase across the boards. That's why they get rid of one of the best pure talented players that Boston had ever seen. Cassidy has the ability now. And so to Sweeney to walk that fine line of making sure that the new talent, the young talent, learn from the core that did win the cup, and can bring that level of intensity and skill mindshift and gamesmanship to the next generation.

Joe Malkin : 26:53

But again, didn't you just say Didn't we just agree that that era is over?

Michael Marcangelo : 26:57

Yes, they're not going to win with this anymore.

Joe Malkin : 26:59

Right? So if they're not going to if they're not going to live with this core, and they need to get rid of that core, what chord is Cassidy now have

Michael Marcangelo : 27:06

Would you rather have Patrice Bergeron teaching the next Patrice Bergeron on or just trade them away and hope that they can learn how to do it like he did?

Joe Malkin : 27:15

Sure who's the next Patrice Bergeron.

Rob Kelly : 27:16

So so i think i think we're looking at it wrong though. It's not the next core. It's the core. That's there's there's two core With the Bruins right now, there's Pasternak. There's Debrusk, there's McEvoy.

Joe Malkin : 27:28

Well, hang on. Let me stop you there. Pasternak is the guy that couldn't practice it coming out of the the break on COVID because he was unfit to play.

Rob Kelly : 27:36

He did do that. But again, that's that youthfulness that's that you that. I mean, I'm trying to fix it.

Joe Malkin : 27:42

Seugin likes to party too. But Sagan would have helped us a lot more than than he would have. We

Rob Kelly : 27:50

that's a whole different would if we had Seugin and Pasternak. And if

Joe Malkin : 27:53

we, if we had Seugin and Pasternak. And that Loui Eriksson, trade is never made. And quadrillion is like go earlier and Bruce Cassidy is brought in earlier, we're having a completely different conversation and they've probably won the series against the lightning. And if Seguin isnt has not traded, there's probably no COVID. So

Michael Marcangelo : 28:09

I think that that's the most outrageous thing I've ever heard. But secondly, I think that right now, it's on Don Sweeney to pick the the better younger players to put around the remainder of this You have locked in your contract. I don't want to trade Patrice Bergeron, right? I don't want to overpay for for Zdeno Chara, either. So I think what you have here is I think if you I would be willing to move creatchi I think he's been old for far too long. But I think that you can just get younger players around marshon and Patrice Bergeron and again, get to get the hell out of here and get and free up some cap space draft. Well, because Sweeney has been hit or miss. He has some good drafts. He has terrible drafts where he had three picks in a row. And there wasn't one pick that really made that team that year. And didn't he also trade a great pic to the LA kings or a great goaltender to the LA kings. So it's not Bruce Cassidy's fault. He can only do what he can do with the players that he's given. But they should focus more on young skillful players moving forward.

Joe Malkin : 29:12

So then does that mean that Sweeney and Neely need to go and I'm not saying that we need to get rid of someone. But what I'm saying here is, is you're talking about the core that from 2000 11, which we're now living nine years in the past, we're talking about Shirley and Julian, who have been gone for X amount of years for four years. Well, they fired Claude, I think, wasn't it midseason

Rob Kelly : 29:37

is that it's done the Patriots probe.

Joe Malkin : 29:39

Oh, yeah, that's right. It was during the Patriots parade so that they didn't catch any flack for it because they were trying to push a fast one they back. Yeah, yeah, exactly. So good. Good for them. So Alright, so let me let me spin that because I think we can I think I can say that. You guys have faith in Bruce Cassidy. And I can understand that. And I think you can say that we probably shouldn't necessarily have faith in the young core yet. If we have guys like pasternack, who can't come back fit to play and are doing whatever they're doing off the ice in the middle of a lockdown. So what needs to change in order for Cassidy to and I and my Contrary to popular belief, I do know how organized Work and that the GM is the one that brings in the players. But if the GM is bringing in the players and we're again, we're talking about Bruce Cassidy who is notorious for developing players, right? That is why they brought him up because they wanted to change. Julian was the the old guard who went with what he had. And if you know, again, I said it during the championship rewrap, which, by the way, part two of the championship wrap is out on anywhere you find your podcasts. We're on Apple podcasts, Google podcasts and Spotify. So go check out part two of the championship. rewrap the 2001 patriots get episode part one if you haven't listened to that as well. In part two, it's it's a it's pretty fun. You get to hear Mike cry. So I you know guys, I listened to that and it doesn't sound like I'm crying. When I'm crying. It sounds like I'm doing something else that by moving back to The Bruins

Rob Kelly : 31:24

so you were faking it, brother.

Joe Malkin : 31:26

I know but I wasn't I really want and I listened to it today. And I said you know what? Wow, that does sound like I'm faking it wasn't I was just trying to not let it all go shout.

Rob Kelly : 31:36

So ADD plug, by the way. Yeah. Yeah, I know why I threw it in there

Michael Marcangelo : 31:41

I

Joe Malkin : 31:44

it Craig reminded me beforehand to get it in there. And now I'm like, Oh, wait, good, good timing.

Rob Kelly : 31:49

You got it in.

Joe Malkin : 31:49

I did. Um, so back to the Bruins we talked with so Bruce Cassidy. He develops players we know he can develop players, Julian old guard. You know, like, like Herman Boone. It's like novocaine do it until it works. Right. So if if we're saying them Cassidy has done a good job developing these players, is what I'm assuming, you know, that's not necessarily my opinion. But that is yours. If we're saying that he has developed these guys The old guard of Chara Bergeron, well, agreed Mike Bergeron shouldn't be traded. He may not be a first liner anymore. Who knows? I mean, I could be wrong there. I'm not gonna, we'll see what happens in 20 2021. So what has to change in order to get Bruce Cassidy and these players to that next level?

Michael Marcangelo : 32:51

I think you have to hit on your draft picks. I think you have to hit on your develop your developmental and I think that you have to continue doing what he's doing with with like the brass tacks of the world. Jake debrusk would have never seen the ice undercloud Julian. I agree. It's a damn shame because he's a pretty he's a pretty good player. He'll only get better with more reps. And with learning from other great players on the team, like a version like a Martian, and again, like consequences, you know, like char and everybody else.

Joe Malkin : 33:22

So if the trains are that bad Bobby, is it do Sweeney have to go?

Rob Kelly : 33:28

So that was actually going to be one of my points is I think Sweeney if there's one executive one Tom person that needs to go with his Sweeney be Yes, he has drafted some of these great players that have come in here made some great trades. He brought Charlie Coyle in here, which I think was the best trade I've ever seen the Bruins make besides Nathan Horton? Yes, he's made some great moves, but the bad moves he's made and the bad draft picks he's made haven't just been bad. They've been awful. Bringing Nicholas Ritchie in here cost them. Game four. There's no doubt about that. Nick, will that that hit Nick Ritchie hit about put on. I can't remember exactly who put it on. But that that turned the tide of that game. So I think Sweeney is the guy you need if anyone needs to go into sweetie onto another point. The one thing that this team since 2011 has been missing and something that I think needs to be a huge priority. This offseason is getting a Real, all star competitive championship goalie in this town. We haven't had it since Tim Thomas I know to grasp has been amazing. But when it comes down to it when the game is on his shoulders he hasn't been there time and time again. And I think that is I and I know this kind of circles back all the way to the beginning of the conversation. That's the one piece that we are missing is to correct it is a All Star championship caliber goalie.

Michael Marcangelo : 34:54

It's weird because he has all the stats that prove that he's a great goalie, right but in the in the big situations, you just say okay Tuukka, don't lose it for us. Whereas in 2011 you said Tim Thomas, go win it for us.

Rob Kelly : 35:08

And that's the difference. That's the big difference is don't lose us. Don't lose it for us first win it for us. JOHN Sebastian de guerre Jonathan quick, two goalies that brought teams that had no business winning a Stanley Cup, no business they were eight seeds, brother. them all the way to win that championship because these guys just have balls. They know how to win big hockey games, and that's something that we haven't had. That's the priority of this offseason everything else is is is very important. But getting someone in here that can win you a championship as a goaltender is definitely the number one thing.

Michael Marcangelo : 35:45

So just to summarize that segment, this Bruins team will never win a Stanley Cup if Don Sweeney is a general manager. And contrary to popular belief, Joe Malkin does actually know how organizations are built and run.

Joe Malkin : 36:00

It's true i don't i don't know how it must be all those video games I played. Wait to that Sweeney Cassidy conversation again. This was this may have been a mistake by by nearly at the top. And I don't mean in the sense of keeping these guys well. It is what I mean. It's exactly what I mean. He brought Right up Don Sweeney from Providence to be the head coach here, right? He brought it remember that it was like mid season, he brought him up to be the bench coach. And then like a few weeks later, that's when they got rid of the club. So then, and that was to get him acclimated into the, into the locker room, which I think was kind of the plan. I think everybody saw coming. But when Shirley left Don Sweeney came in, but Don Sweeney was the assistant GM before he was the GM, wasn't he? He was already here. So again, we're staying in house to try and accomplish the same thing. It just it seems to me, like Neely had this dream of 2011 living on and he almost got there, Bobby You said it before. Like he almost got there so many times. Right. We're talking about, you know, Eastern Conference Finals. We're talking Stanley Cups, presidents trophies. I mean, so close within reach, but never quite got there. And that's why my opinion was that. You know Cassidy is the guy that was They need to change but if you can, if you can get the core to a point where you're now elevating those younger players and you can find the my next point on the goalkeeper was going to be less will draft one right? But if Sweeney to go back to what you just said my give Sweeney is the GM he has had a terrible run of drafting goalies.

Michael Marcangelo : 37:50

I mean, he traded a great goalie. It was his last name was Jones. I forget it. He traded him away. And he was an amazing goalie for a couple of for a couple of yours but like, I don't want this to sound the wrong way. But To hell with that love you can mean it. But all this happened on your watch to you. He doesn't he doesn't we don't get to not blame him just because he's cam Neely. He brought a stanley cup to Boston. I get it but he had the opportunity to bring three.

Joe Malkin : 38:20

I said it at the beginning of this. That's where I started I before I even said Cassidy or Sweeney I said, you know, it's cam Neely the problem so you're absolutely right. It happened it's happened on his watch Why? Why are there not three Stanley Cups? Why don't we have 14 reps to talk about instead of 12? You know, I mean, like, that's that's the problem I see if I'm with you guys get younger and if cassidy can prove that continue to prove that he can develop that young talent and change the core from the old guys to the younger guys. Then it's it's Sweeney. I mean, they got to draft better just do

Michael Marcangelo : 39:00

what Detroit did. I mean, the redwings were a perennial playoff team because what they did is they had a young quarterback in the 90s right, that got old and they always got people there to elevate the core that made them better but also made those younger guys better. So they kept doing it for 20 years. Like I don't make I'm probably simplifying it but it's it's not like it hasn't been done before. They just have not been able to do it in Boston.

Joe Malkin : 39:26

It's not rocket science. I mean, if we talk about it, like, we could just step into the, you know, into the garden and do the job that these guys do, we couldn't I mean, we don't have the connections, we aren't as smart. But, you know, it's not right. It shouldn't be rocket science for these guys. Right? I mean, you've had the core you've had the ability to do it, so I hate to say it, but do it. Um, final final thoughts from you guys on the Bruins before we switch gears?

Michael Marcangelo : 39:54

I think that if this is truly the end of Zdeno Chara in Boston, I mean, his fan base owes him a debt of gratitude because we can talk all day long about you know what the team should have done. What the some players that didn't show up that man play with a with a with a fractured jaw wired shut at age 42 to give his team the best chance to win. So he was a true warrior. I don't think he I don't think he gets Enough recognition as like some of the pillars of the Boston sports players over the last 20 years. What he was that he was the the Tom Brady of of the Boston Bruins. And I think that it's a travesty that ended this way. Hopefully if he comes back great but if not go win a championship somewhere else because big z You deserve it

Rob Kelly : 40:48

yet, so I do I just got goosebumps remembering played with a with a broken jaw game seven of the Stanley Cup Finals last year. I've never been more fired up in my entire life than when I saw the day. Don't try to skate on that ice last year in game seven. I'll never forget I was like this. We're gonna win. We didn't. But regardless, which, which I think just sums up the entire point I've been making the whole time is when it comes down to it. This core hasn't gotten the job done. I think it is time to shake up one of those big pieces and get another championship going in here. I don't think the draft is the way To go with the goat with the goalie, because I don't think as much as you've been talking about blowing it up, I don't think this window is over. I just think you need to shake it up and get whether it be Lou Cheech, whether it be some Martian, whether it be crew, whether it be someone, someone needs to go, you need to make a shake up move. And, by the way, that guy, his name was Martin Jones.

Michael Marcangelo : 41:47

And by the way, Lucic has been gone for three years.

Joe Malkin : 41:50

And by the way, former former US Olympic goaltender Ryan Miller is a free agent this year. I mean, not that I want to bring him in because he kind of fell off with Buffalo and hasn't done anything and and I'm so alright, so switching gears to one team that has disappointed us over the last week to a team that has done pretty much the complete opposite in the Boston Celtics, who now hold a two game lead over the Toronto Raptors after winning game two of that series 102 99 and game three is on Thursday evening in the bubble in Orlando, so hey Bobby, we know you're a big fan of those Toronto Raptors there the the Celtics have a two game lead. He's not really. But the the history with Bob over the last few weeks has been that the Raptors are the best team in the NBA. Even better than the 95 bulls. Not kidding. Bobby doesn't believe that but Bobby, the Raptors are down to Oh, and you know I again I'm not I don't want to put you on the spot here or blow up your spot with this but you've been a big proponent of the success of the Toronto Raptors while in the bubble in Orlando. what's what's going on? I mean, the Celtics have looked pretty good. They've they're, you know, they swept the first round now they're up to Oh, on the Raptors.

Rob Kelly : 43:21

Yeah. So I was actually Talking we were talking about this earlier is I think as much as I do like the Toronto Raptors as a basketball team because I think that they are a good basketball team. I think the Celtics team is just too much for them right now. Everything the Raptors do that's their strong point. The Celtics have been doing better these past two games and the Raptors weaknesses which are ranks and guarding the wings, the Celtics just are on another level than them and I think that that has shown so much in these last two games tonight specifically, and it was the end of that first half that really made me start thinking why the Celtics really are just that much better than them at this point. I don't know what's gonna happen. The rest series still thinks it's gonna go seven. I'll stay with that take, but you could see just how much better we are at this moment than that team.

Michael Marcangelo : 44:19

I was wrong and I mean it I was wrong. I mean, let me just give you a little bit of an explanation here. The reason why the Raptors have lost the opening two games of the Celtics is because they don't have that intangible that we do. Marcus Smart is a difference maker. We were down 12 everyone in our group chat was saying, you know, it might not be over, but it's probably over. And he drops five straight three pointers. That was a summit.

Joe Malkin : 44:58

Hasn't he been that guy his entire career and as we're so fickle with a guy like Marcus Smart offensively, defensively, he's he's been lights out, right? He plays such great defense. But offensively he's slightly streaky, but then he has that that run where he hits five straight threes and you just know that That's just the type of duty is he knows how to turn it on when to turn it on and can make a difference.

Michael Marcangelo : 45:30

There. The Celtics only scored I think 17 points in the third quarter. Right 13 of those points were Jayson Tatum and all the Raptors could do was just go up by 12th like they they were clicking on all cylinders. We were we were shooting I think two of I was like to have 12 from the field in the third quarter. And they were only up by 12 like if that if those roles are reversed Boston's up 20 and the Raptors give up but there's just something about this team and maybe it maybe it quite simply it is that I was wrong. And it is Marcus Smart. But there's there's just not something that there's something on this team that will not allow the players to give up.

Rob Kelly : 46:14

So it's not so it is Marcus yes and Markus has always been there. He's always been that staple of, you know even last year against the bucks that Like game five I've never seen a more despicable game of basketball from a team except for Marcus smart. So he's always been that guy. In my opinion the difference of what takes Marcus and puts them on this pedestal is the addition of Kemba Walker. I think that has been the thing that has taken Marcus from the intangible the defense guy to this other animal because of that clutch factor that he knows that he has on his shoulder not only that Jayson Tatum has gone to a whole different level. So those things combined then you bring Marcus Smart into this mix shoe is just the I never thought I'd say this. He is right now my favorite basketball player on the planet that man is on believable. Unbelievable.

Michael Marcangelo : 46:39

I think sooner sooner or later, I think sooner or later that the the no the no big man is going to catch up with the Celtics unless Robert Williams can really really elevate his game. And be that that force of nature, but it ain't going to be in this series

Joe Malkin : 47:28

where we talk about coaches that can develop, right? Isn't that kind of Brad's mo here too? We've talked about that since he came to Boston in 2013. From Butler, he never had a big man and Butler like that. That wasn't their style there either. Right now he comes to Boston and again, has all these young guys and all the, the Kyrie Irving's of the world are in here. Gordon Hayward, who in? I mean, the way I see it, he he holds this team back. I mean, Gordon Hayward, I'm sure he's a great guy. He is a, a world talent. But I don't think he fits here. I think he fit better in Utah. But that's besides the point. But the point I'm trying to make is, if he's never really used a big man, and he's great at developing, who's going to get them, you know, and that's going to kind of lead into one of my next questions. But when do you think that catches up to them

Michael Marcangelo : 48:23

I think if you run it if you know if we're thinking really like next level I think the heat really scare me like if they get through. But if we're talking about like in the actual NBA like finals, you can't beat the Lakers without a big man you cannot stop Anthony Davis with with with face like he won't he can't do it. You just can't now maybe you can make up for it with your wing play. But I think that sooner or later unless and I do think Williams has the ability over the next couple of series to really catch lightning in a bottle and elevate his game and if he does that, we'll be okay. But the Raptors Yes, Bobby they're a fundamentally good basketball team. They are. But Serge Ibaka and Gasol. That doesn't doesn't matter what they do. They're not going to be the reason why the Raptors beat the Celtics.

Rob Kelly : 49:20

Yeah, and I think that that's one thing that I am surprised about with Israel. Raptors team right now is they're not capitalizing on the fact that they are bigger than us. I don't know how many times I see Marcus all just hanging out by the three point line and shooting threes when it's like, Dude, what? What are you doing, man if that was the Celtics and they had a size advantage and in the guy who is five inches taller than every single other player on the court is 25 feet away from the basket. I'm throwing my TV out the window. I don't know what they're doing. But I agree that the only time it catches up with the Celtics because of how good the wings are because of how fast they are, because of those intangibles that I thought the Raptors had, but apparently that's what the Celtics have. Because of that it doesn't catch up to them until they get to the end.

Joe Malkin : 50:09

I remember we talked about that. When we were talking about this going into this series, Bobby and you mentioned the speed of the wings and I can't remember I'd have to go check the tape. But I was trying to remember if you had said that the Boston when Boston's wings were too faster to run on swings were too fast. And for some reason it's jumping out that you said Toronto, but you still believe this is going to go seven games. So what is Toronto have to do in order to get this game to get back into the series and get it to seven games? So there's two things that that really stuck out today was that size comparison that just made these guys have, I suppose I can't pass it. I can't say so cam, they have marchessault and they have Serge ibaka. Those three guys need to rebound the Celtics, which was the same recipe that the Sixers had to do so I'm not sure if maybe it's just the Celtics have figured out the fact that they are smaller and they figured out a way to evolve past that, if that's the case then was called market smoke. Let me very possible

Rob Kelly : 51:09

but if that's the case, then watch out NBA. And then when it comes to what else they have to do is you saw it in the first half it was why they were succeeding. They need to force force turnovers. That is the only way they can be the Celtics if they're not going to use their size they need to use their straight outride speed. Because when the Raptors start running they're a tough team to beat. I don't I don't know if that's gonna happen for the sake of my take and my dignity I am gonna say seven games but I that's tough if this can play continues for the rest of this series. It's not going seven games and we're going to have a very funny segment making fun of

Joe Malkin : 51:55

so the Celtics are up to Oh, and I think what they have to do to your point, Bobby the point you just made have to go seven games. The Raptors have to do something different. But the Celtics also have to be able to keep their legs underneath them. Right they've won six games in a row. They won four against a bigger, probably more physical 70 sixers team they're going up against a Raptors team. That is probably has similar speed to them. But they do have a bigger four and five than the Celtics do. My thought is it goes five and the Celtics win. Win the series in I'm sorry. Yeah five sorry Celtics win in five. Let me get my thoughts straight there. But I can see it going for if the Celtics go up three Oh, because like Mike said about game one if the Raptors go down 20 they're gonna roll over. Right. And I think if they go down three games after Thursday night, I think they roll over. And and that's that.

Michael Marcangelo : 53:06

It's also pretty simple, right? Like, don't let Marcus all have four files in the first quarter. And I think like I think that's a credit to Brad Stevens and the Celtics. I think that they are targeting their big men and trying to follow them early, to make sure that they're going to be playing off when the game matters in the third in the Fourth, but I also think that now it's in the Raptors head that the Celtics can score it well. So they're going to try and put up threes like you know, we're gonna have Marcus all doing his his best rifle offense impersonation and just shoot threes even though he's seven feet tall when he should be under the under the rim. I think it's in their head. I don't and obviously they don't have kawhi this team is and I'm gonna just repeat, DK says we'll take this team is not the defending NBA champions because they're the best player on that team is not there.

Joe Malkin : 53:59

I absolutely agree. I mean, you need Kawhi Leonard and I think Bobby even said that in the last series for Toronto against Brooklyn. I mean, it could have been a different series if they didn't have Kawhi Leonard he is one of the best players in the NBA, right. So they may have the trophy but they don't they don't have the player. So Celtics are up to o in this series after tonight. In the West, the Lakers and the Clippers are waiting for the either the Rockets or the Thunder. The Clippers are waiting for the nuggets or the jazz. The other game in the other series in the east, the Miami Heat against the Milwaukee Bucks. In that first game, Jimmy Butler dropped 15 points in the fourth quarter 40 overall to help Miami to that win. We've talked about him a number of times already, but I'm going to drop Erik Spoelstra's name here. Does Erik Spoelstra in the Miami Heat have what it takes to knock off the Milwaukee Bucks?

Michael Marcangelo : 55:07

I think so. I will also say that Erik Spoelstra is a better coach than Doc Rivers. That was for rayshawn Buchanan hopefully he hears that and smiles.

Joe Malkin : 55:15

You can't say that while he's not on the podcast, but

Michael Marcangelo : 55:18

like this, this this team and Butler in particular, I think he's the perfect fit down there. That team reminds me of, of the Celtics, a lot of the Celtics and that they're scrappy. They fight and they're really really, really fast. I think that, you know, I don't see a world. I don't see an NBA world where we're where Giannis Antetokounmpo isn't in it. Right? I just I just think that the rest will still do enough to keep them into a game seven. But the heat scare me far more than the Bucs do.

Joe Malkin : 55:53

Well, and I think that's partially because of what you just said about the speed and that's what what Bobby said about Toronto right is the speed scares him and that's why he thinks Toronto can push this game this series to seven games Milwaukee, while they have Giannis Antetokounmpo that they're not as fast are kind of big and lunky. Right? Or they don't move as well. They might shoot better, but Boston cannot run them. And as I He said about Marcus smart where were Bobby said that Toronto needs to rebound. And he's not sure where the Celtics got that. I mean going back to market smart he's not the biggest guy on the floor, but he plays big. I mean he's he's not afraid to get underneath the basket and pull the ball down if he needs to. We've seen it so many times. And I think that's another testament to bread as Mike said, I mean good time to give this guy a five year extension, right.

Rob Kelly : 56:48

I completely agree when it comes to the heat. I don't think that they have a chance against the buck. So I guess I don't completely agree. I disagree. I think Janice is going to take this series over again. I think he is too much for Miami to handle I think add a bio is a special player but I don't think he has it in him to stop geodes over a seven game series. I think my walkie is a tough matchup for the Celtics. What it comes down to do me is if Giannis Antetokounmpo has that that championship tangible that we keep talking about. You saw when it came down to Butler going off in that fourth quarter. There's been lots of quotes going around about how Yanis didn't ask the cover Butler. Isaiah Thomas even came out and said his championship players, Marcus smart, Avery Bradley kawhi wood wood, want to cover Jimmy Butler in that, that situation. So to me, I think that is the biggest thing that if you're going to exploit anything on the Bucs, it is the fact that they do not have that championship caliber. They don't have that intangible that the rest of these teams have. And I think that's the thing you need to go after with them is if you get on them, you need to put your foot on their throat. And and I don't think like you said, john, I think it's the same thing with the Raptors. I think when you get on them, they will roll over and I think that's what we saw last night when it comes to Jimmy Butler. And

Michael Marcangelo : 58:17

I also think that like if you really look at at the at the stat sheet like Andre Iguodala played 19 minutes only scored four points. If he starts playing his level of basketball, which I don't know what it is right now at his age, but that team is scrapping and I'm telling you like Jae Crowder, Iguodala, Jimmy Butler Bam Adebayo Goran Dragić Duncan Robinson like they can they can scrap and I think if you make if you just make it your mentality, like, you know what, I'm going to make a Yanis be less, he's going to be the only thing that beats us if you can get Kris Middleton off off his game. I think I think this game I think this series goes seven, and if it goes to a game seven, if the referes are fair and balanced, I think that the heat when

Rob Kelly : 59:07

I just don't, I just don't see that I really do as much as I love Spolstera as much as I love the heat. And I think Jimmy Butler is an absolute baller. I wanted him in Boston for years. I don't think he hasn't taken him over Kyrie Irving facts, facts, which was a that wasn't Rumor deal for a while if you remember we get on with a lot to get Jimmy Butler

Michael Marcangelo : 59:27

if you have Butler, you don't you either don't have Jayson Tatum, or Jaylen brown.

Joe Malkin : 59:33

So which is why it was good that they didn't make the trade.

Rob Kelly : 59:36

So as much as I love the heat when you're relying on players like Tyler herro and Jae Crowder, playing 34 minutes a game, I think it's gonna be tough to beat a team that has the best player in the entire world. Again, I was flush. I think he's a great coach. Mike, I agree with you. They're a scrappy team. And that's been my argument for the Raptors since day one is they play team basketball, which is exactly what the he do. But the X Factor is Giannis Antetokounmpo . And I don't think Giannis Antetokounmpo is going to have another game like you did in game one. And I think because of that criticism that he was receiving throughout game one where he wasn't guarding Jimmy Butler, he didn't take on that assignment. He didn't do what was asked as the best player in the world. I think he steps up to another level and I think in game two, you see like a 4011 and Eight line from Be honest and the Bucs are going to win Valley 20

Michael Marcangelo : 1:00:27

I'm going to read the stat line right now you ready? And you just tell me Bobby what team This is. They shot 46% from the field. They shot 38% from three and 92% from free throw. Who was that? Was the heat and they won. No Waukee shot 50% from the field 45% for from from three pointers. So it wasn't there wasn't this this whole gap or lapse in an offensive play. They actually played worse in the Bucs and they still kick their ass.

Joe Malkin : 1:01:01

So when we talk next week, we're probably going to have at least close to an end of the series The West will be locked up for at least for the the semi finals in the West because they're still in the first round out there. What do we think the East looks like? Wouldn't when we get back together next week? Because I'm gonna tell you i think it's it's Boston and Milwaukee in the conference finals.

Michael Marcangelo : 1:01:37

My hot take is gonna be Boston versus the heat in the conference finals. And I you know what? I think Boston's gonna win this. I'm going to say in five. I said six last week, Boston and five.

Joe Malkin : 1:01:47

I feel the same way. Mike. I mean, if if Toronto can't win game three, I think I think it's in four. But if they win game three, it'll be in five.

Rob Kelly : 1:01:57

I think I'm with you, Joe. I think it is Milwaukee versus Boston. I think that like I said, Yanis is just going to be too much. When it comes down to it. Miami's gonna put up a great fight. I think they're a really good basketball team are greatly coached. Like we said before, I think splasher is one of the best coaches in the league, as a ganus is going to be too much. And we get a rematch of last year's semi finals. And we see what a difference maker Kemba Walker Really is against the this Milwalkie Bucks team.

Joe Malkin : 1:02:27

So, two we've gone through the NHL and the NBA. The the Bruins are out there headed home out of the bubble. I'm sure they'd rather almost stay there except for some guys that clearly want to go home. The Celtics have a two oh lead on the Raptors going into Thursday night. And one thing we haven't touched on much at all so far in the SN SW podcast, which is odd for this group is the Boston Red Sox and baseball. And this was gonna be my final my final word, but I kind of want to bring it into a conversation. Because I was talking to somebody about it the other day, and I kind of want to get Craig's thoughts on this as well. Yesterday, the Boston Red Sox on trade deadline day traded away Kevin Pillar, Josh, Josh Osage, it's good because I clearly can't say his name and basically brought in I'm sorry, Mitch Moreland Two days ago, and based on the teams that they traded him to, which was the San Diego Padres for Mitch Moreland, also went to the cubs. And Paul, I went to the Rockies, a lot of prospects. And I think that john Henry, kind of it's almost going back to the My thought about the Bruins here, Mike and I, I don't know what your thoughts on this are, but they've now changed the president of baseball operations or whatever they want to call high and bloom after Dave Dombroski got the boot last year. I see this as a not a panic move because I think we all knew what was going to happen with the Red Sox this year because they they weren't very good coming into it Chris sale was injured, all the the normal narratives, but I think right now it's at a point where they're trying to rotate it and bring in the younger guys the prospects and rebuild The minor league system.

Michael Marcangelo : 1:04:25

I think you build that team around Xander Bogaerts , and around. And really I mean, that's endeavours, right? I think for now, though, again, maybe a heartache. The Red Sox have killed my love of baseball. For now. There's, there was no reason why this August given that they started in freaking July should have been in August that had games that did not matter. And yet they still did. So I think you know what Dombroski gutted our farm system. We all knew that he was going to everyone knew that that's what that's that's just what he does. Now you have a chance to rebuild. And if you do it, right, I mean, I think that you can get back to a point where you have a team on the field, you know, like the 2003 Red Sox that people really, really enjoyed watching. They were kind of they were underachievers, right? They never really want anything but they were a fun group to watch. You're sprinkling some veterans here that didn't do anything else were David Ortiz, and maybe you build around them. But I think for now, this we all knew that this was gonna be a dumpster fire. I thought, you know, in our group chat again, I was wrong. That's number two, I thought that they were gonna go 31 and 29.

Joe Malkin : 1:05:42

They might not win 25 games, they might not win 20 games. They're currently at the time of recording this, they're losing to the Atlanta Braves four to two in the sixth inning. And if they lose, they'll go to 12 and 24 which would put again, put go it would put them at 20 and 40 for the projection on the season, which is something in our group chat that I've always sent out to you guys every day. Because it's funny to watch. And I don't mean funny Haha, I mean, funny like, we knew it was coming. We knew that this was going to happen with this team. I mean, the series of events Dombroski gone in the middle of the season, they don't tell us who they're going to bring in as the GM days. And Hi, I'm blown from Tampa. He's not even named the general manager. He's given whatever made up title John Henry gave them. And they don't do much of anything at the beginning of the year. And somebody I think it was Bobby, it was either Bobby or Dave, who came up with a conspiracy theory that john Henry already knew what was going to happen with COVID. And that's why they didn't do anything in the offseason, which, of course, is probably another ridiculous take. But they didn't do anything, right. So now all of a sudden, we're sending the guy. I mean, Kevin pillar, I said this in our group chat yesterday, Kevin Pillar, didn't even get to unpack his suitcase, and he's gone, right? He was brought in six months ago and see you later. And that was one of my favorite signings of the offseason. You get rid of one of your best hitters and Mitch Moreland and Mike, like you said, clearly, hopefully, it's them building around the untell

Michael Marcangelo : 1:06:11

what you just said there, encapsulates everything that is wrong with the Red Sox when you have to get rid of your best hitter Mitch Moreland you had Mookie freaking Betts

Rob Kelly : 1:07:28

And that's that's the it's funny. isn't the way it's it's so depressing. Like Mike said, it really just took it took away. It took away my love for this team because of how all this was handled I was and I agree with with unloading polar, you signed him for a one year contract for filler with a common Mookie you get two pretty solid prospects that third baseman they got from San Diego is pretty good. I can't think of his name at the top of my head. You actually got something from him. That's a great move by Bloom.

Joe Malkin : 1:07:57

Hudson Potts.

Rob Kelly : 1:07:59

exactly. So I've actually heard his name coming up through systems for a long time. He's been on the top 100 prospects list for quite some time now. I think like two or three years. It's just a hell of a baseball name. Right. It is a great baseball game to ours and it by the way, so. So it's just the way that all this has been handled. So you go back a year two years ago. Like I said in that blog post I did right. I was on top of the world, this team this This isn't where we were supposed to be. That's the problem is we had it set up to be good. For years we had the core we had the best player I've ever seen in a Red Sox uniform, surrounded by one of the best shortstops I've ever seen in a Red Sox uniform. One of the best third baseman I've ever seen in Red Sox uniform, two of the best pitchers have ever seen a Red Sox uniform, and one of the best closers I've ever seen in Red Sox uniform. And here we are on pace to not even win 20 games and a strike in COVID shortened season.

Joe Malkin : 1:08:56

So this is why real quick, I have a problem with John Henry. This is why I have a problem with john Henry is this conversation we're having right now? Where it's so many things he does with this organization are reactionary and yeah, you know, Mike you we've had this conversation a million times I get it there's there's a it's cyclical, but it doesn't get old when and the World Series. Don't get on. But it gets old seeing the team finish last, you know, not make the playoffs at all. And it's like, oh, well, next year we're gonna go and we're gonna win the World Series. It's like well at least be competitive and and give us games in August that matter even even in a shortened season. My second point to the Mookie Betts point that you were trying to make there, Bob without saying his name. The problem about Mookie Betts, no matter what you did, no matter how much money you offered him, he didn't want to play in Boston, for whatever reason. I don't know the guy Personally, I haven't had a conversation with him. But my personal opinion and belief is that he just didn't want to play in Boston, so you weren't going to keep him anyway. So maybe, maybe this is now the the brainchild of john Henry maybe he knew that and he said, so maybe I'm under estimating the guy because now I'm starting to convince myself that he's a friggin evil genius. But he trades away they trade away bets right? After getting rid of Dombroski, maybe they knew they just knew from the beginning best wasn't going to come back like, Hey, we're going to offer you this arbitrary contract right around sort of the money that you would get no matter where else you'd go. Nope. You don't want it. Okay. Dombroski out who we're going to bring in, we're going to bring in this high end bloom guy from Tampa, who has been notorious for building up the system in Tampa, and Tampa has had some pretty good teams in the last couple of years. I mean, they made the playoffs that Ben competitive, they hadn't. And this isn't a joke about the covid season, but they've had no fans in the stands down there. And yet, they're still winning games. Kevin cash has been a fairly good manager. So he brings in high end bloom, because what did he want to do in 2000 2000 to 2003, he wanted to bring in Billy Beane, so I mean, it's it's always been his manifest destiny to bring in a guy that's a Moneyball guy. And when he can't do that, he brought in a guy like Dombroski and said, Kay, let's go win now. Okay, now, he loses His core guy right Bobby, that's kind of what you were just saying is that they had one of the best outfielders in the game one of the best hitters in the game, one of the best closers in the game, two of the best starters in the game. And now they don't now they now they lose one of those guys, and they realize that Chris Sale, love a minute, is made of of paper and can't stay healthy. And it's probably his pitching motion and how tiny The guy is. But so now that's gone. Dombroski gone, and I'm going around the circles but you bring in Chaim Bloom and now this is what the plan is. Right? And Mike said, this is this is good. We got to rebuild it. You bring in Hudson Potts, you bring in prospects from Colorado, Chicago and San Diego, which do notoriously have very good minor league systems, and they can't in the route and then you go, Well, how come those teams aren't notoriously good at the major league level with the exception of the Chicago Cubs. It's because those guys can't get to that level before they get poached by another team. So that's why thoughts and now again I now I think Henry is an evil genius, but this is my problem with him and pets wasn't going to stay here, regardless of what happened. And that's why now we see Hi, I'm blue mecanismos

Michael Marcangelo : 1:12:35

I have such a problem with that take about Mookie Betts wasn't going to stay here. You want to know why? If you if you truly think that why not make him an offer that he couldn't refuse? They didn't even try? You know what if you if so everyone wants to say like this argument is, oh, he wouldn't have stayed here anyway, how do we know we heard the same crap from Lucchino when less but we don't

Joe Malkin : 1:12:56

but we don't just just to expand on that we don't know. But he very well could have had a conversation with john Henry and said Listen, man, like I just I don't want to play here.

Rob Kelly : 1:13:04

You're telling so so you say so when it comes to him playing in LA is just the biggest market is Boston okay.

Joe Malkin : 1:13:10

Yeah, but it's not as but the media is not as on your rear end as they are in Boston in New York.

Rob Kelly : 1:13:16

Is it 10 years 300 million is what he got right? Somewhere at 400.

Michael Marcangelo : 1:13:21

We offered him 100 million dollars, less

Joe Malkin : 1:13:25

For but two, but two years was so the AV was close to what it would have been anyway. And also at that time, that was the second highest biggest contract in the history of baseball.

Rob Kelly : 1:13:35

So what it comes down to though, is that this guy is the best player I've ever seen it in a Red Sox uniform. He's the best baseball, pure baseball player that we've ever seen. And Bobby saw Ted Williams play. I did, I did see Ted Williams play, right. That's how old I am. That's how old we're getting. That's how long we've been on the air. So the nice bootstrap, but so when it comes down to it is like, in my opinion, you should have done everything you can to keep this guy here. You're one of the biggest market teams in baseball. It's not like you're struggling for the money. It's it. It's like what Mike said. They didn't even try.

Joe Malkin : 1:14:15

Well. So good. Yeah, Mike, go ahead.

Michael Marcangelo : 1:14:16

Can we please be done with the Jackie Bradley Jr. Experiment, please? Oh, I'm so done with

Joe Malkin : 1:14:21

I love him defensively. I love them defensively. In the playoffs he learns how to head but yeah, I'm gonna no i i agree with you like I like

Michael Marcangelo : 1:14:30

him he learns how to hit relative to what he does in the regular season or he learns how to hit like a major leaguer because this thing is it's gone off. It's gone off to off the deep end we need to get rid of him. You need to get rid of that attendee

Rob Kelly : 1:14:43

Yeah. Like, that's another one I are. That's I mean, that's a whole different topic. What happened to this guy? What happened to Ben intending? I don't know Craig, Joe, if you guys might you guys have any explanation for this. But this man has fallen off a cliff.

Joe Malkin : 1:14:59

I think you hit a ceiling,

Rob Kelly : 1:15:01

which isn't even hit a ceiling. He's back to his basement. This different baseball player than he was two years ago.

Joe Malkin : 1:15:08

That may have been his ceiling. I mean, we've seen guys so many times in in every League, right that they come out on fire, but they're good for a couple years. I mean, you know, a patriot equivalent. I mean, love the guy. I think he still plays pretty well in Tennessee. He was hurt last year but Malcom Butler. I mean, he's known for one play and had one and had a great year. He had a great year that year. So and I can see Mike wanting to disagree with me again, my mic is the disagreement voice or the disagreement face. But I think it's kind of on that level is that benintendi just hit his ceiling, and there was just nothing left. How

Michael Marcangelo : 1:15:47

about we compare him to Jacoby Ellsbury. I'll just say that Ellsbury ceiling was higher. But there was all of this thought all this pomp all the circumstances. benintendi is going to be the next young power hitting outfielder. And he's not

Joe Malkin : 1:16:06

what Mike I'm curious what to get because I cut you off because I wanted to just throw that in there about bets but go back to your point about bets. And when you said we don't know if you wanted to be here, we offered him 100. I just want to I want to complete that thought.

Michael Marcangelo : 1:16:20

I just think like, you know, it's sure we don't know what that's has. said to john Henry, but we also know for a moral certainty that john Henry did not offer him 10 years or 12 years or $400 million. Right. So the argument that says that he would have stayed or he, he wouldn't say that no matter what we paid, and we don't know that and we heard the same crap from a different leader of the organization with Jon Lester. When they lowball him. So the argument is, whenever these people leave, or they get treated well, no matter what we would have done, we couldn't have kept them. How about you try?

Joe Malkin : 1:16:50

I don't believe that about Lester. I believe a you could have given Lester a lot more. And he would have stayed I don't feel that way about bets. But let's say let's let's go in our time machine here and say that they did offer pets an offer he couldn't refuse, right. Okay, so now you keep bets. What happens to Bogart what happens to Devers what happens to even Vasquez because Vasquez is actually played all right this season for the offensive guy he is but what happens to those guys are they able to keep them and I know you say well they got all the money in the world but we know how they feel about the luxury tax Zander signed previous to all this bad stuff. Oh I know Andrew signed two years ago at a at a rate where you knew this dude wanted to play in Boston he loves it here he loves being the x man coming up through the system he loves being here so I don't think that was ever on the table for extra walk which is why when I bought it's not a matter of walking it's a matter of them not being able to afford them

Rob Kelly : 1:17:53

right well that's why when I saw any rumors with axon the name I will walk away from this team if they trade Santa Barbara bug rats i will i swear my life I'm done.

Joe Malkin : 1:18:02

I will be done. If they made Zander bar guards he's leaving but ball guards he'd be fine with Sorry,

Michael Marcangelo : 1:18:07

my good. Here's what you do. And again, I'm not a rocket science. I'm not a rocket scientist. Right. But why don't you find a team like you did back in 2012 and you get rid of Chris sale. You get rid of Jackie Bradley Jr. You get rid of Benton Tandy and you Find someone to take Dustin Pedroia his contract off of the hands of the Boston Red Sox. And now you have cap space to keep your young talented core and build around them.

Joe Malkin : 1:18:36

And I think that's what high end bloom is going to be challenged with here. And I'm and they came out with the the news the other day, and I came I think it was right before the Moreland trade. They basically said anybody's on the table, come and get them give us an offer. And that makes me wonder what that room was like, because when they fired off the Osage deal, and they fired off the Moreland deal. Like some of these deals were happening kind of quick. And it makes me wonder what kind of calls they were fielding. And I'm sure they said the news and then let's say I don't know the Yankees call about Bogart, and they're like, Nah, man, like we're first of all, no, I mean, whatever you're going to offer us just isn't going to be good enough. sure he's on the table, but you'd have to give us like judge and like 10 prospects for and I know that that's But preposterous, but everybody was on the table. So, Bloom didn't get rid of those guys who we all agree, probably need to go. So that's going to be his challenge in the offseason. Because nobody is going to right now nobody is going to take prodromos contract, very few teams are going to take sales contract benintendi they're going to look at it and say, Well, what are we going to pay for a triple A guy but but benintendi is one of those guys, maybe maybe whether he wants to be here or not. Maybe he could thrive in a smaller market. We've seen it so many times.

Michael Marcangelo : 1:19:57

That's why like, again, you have to you have to make it worthwhile for a team to take those trash contracts like the joy and like even even Chris sale but if you package like a Ben attendee and a Jackie Bradley Jr, who I've been hearing about his potential for so long, and you send them to Arizona, who knows, maybe they take them and then maybe you have again, this is all theoretical, because they already they already traded mukhi bets, but just imagine for the next 10 years. Your 345 is Bow guards. That's endeavours.

Rob Kelly : 1:20:26

And that's and that's gonna be my last point on this is that was the dream. That was the dream when I, like I said in that blog when I went to bed after we won that World Series, I had dreams about 10 years from now hearing batting third for the Boston Red Sox Mookie Betts batting fourth, Zander bow guides, batting fifth Rep. And that's gone now because of what's happened over the last year and a half. A lot

Michael Marcangelo : 1:20:55

of statement.

Joe Malkin : 1:20:57

A lot of what goes on in baseball. And we've seen it as we've we've gotten older here and we've watched the game more. We're not seeing the Derek Jeter years anymore. We're not seeing that. And I think when you find a guy like Zander Bogart, who to me is kind of an old school ballplayer, right, like this guy. This guy grinds like he is gritty. He wants to be that guy that sticks around. He wants To be that guy that stays somewhere for a long time, and it's hard to find those guys. And really, you know, there's not too many teams that that had that in the 2000s or, or even within the last 10 years, but then that New York Yankees team that they had in the 90s where they had you know, Posada they had me seen that they had pet it, they had, you know, even Clemens as a part of that, but he, you know, Jeter was a part of that and you just don't have those cores anymore in baseball, not like you used to, and that's what we need to do. And I think if if somebody is going to do it, you know, I kind of have faith in high and bloom with what he tried to do over the last couple days.

Michael Marcangelo : 1:22:05

I just have one last point that I'll shut up I promise. Maybe you should stop striving to have the Derek Jeter and just settle for Roberto Alomar right because he was pretty freakin good and just get players like that because you had it and you let it go. And I won't forgive them for what they did. They can still fix it. But they have to be willing to move up from these pieces that have quote unquote potential and just rebuild it.

Rob Kelly : 1:22:31

Not to go off and Roberto Alomar tanjun Good luck, Roberto Alma.

Joe Malkin : 1:22:37

It took us an hour and 25 minutes, but we had the first f bomb drop. Thanks, Bobby. Thanks, Roberto. All right, that's too That's too All right, who dropped the other one was that Bobby too? It was Mike. Oh, wow. Mikey feeling all right.

Craig D'Alessandro : 1:22:50

He didn't drop an F bomb, but he dropped.

Michael Marcangelo : 1:22:52

It was a bomb.

Joe Malkin : 1:22:54

Bomb. So to that point, Mike, and I just want to you know, if they can find that core, and they can get some young guys in here that actually want to play. I'd be okay with a bad season. As long as it's fun to watch. Right? I mean, I think we can all agree with that. I would much rather they go and win a World Series or be competitive. But I don't want to finish last in the east if they're finishing third behind the Yankees and the rays and or the Blue Jays and that goes That blue jays lineup is ridiculous. And I love that buffalo Blue Jays team. But if they can find the guys to come in, allow this team to be competitive. I can deal with a couple of bad years. But you're right, Mike, they got to get rid of those pieces.

Rob Kelly : 1:23:39

And the last point I'll make on that is you're right, Joe 100% because when it comes down to it, even that Bobby Valentine year, all right, that team was garbage. They were awful. But you know what? They weren't that bad to watch. Because like, players like Cody Ross, they had players like Dustin still on the field. They had guys that actually gave a shit, personality, personality, right? They had guys that you could actually root for. And that's something that's missing from this team right now. So I'm with you on that.

Joe Malkin : 1:24:06

So who would have thought we would have gotten the most fired up about baseball when we haven't talked about it? I mean, I'm a little I'm a little excited about it, but I'm a little also a little disappointed. I also asked for Craig's thought on this and we all just kind of railroaded it. So Craig, go ahead. We

Michael Marcangelo : 1:24:20

are for baseball guys. But I would say that you know, as far as goes, as far as the future looks, I feel better looking towards the future on, you know, the 2021 2022 Red Sox. And I have, you know, a month ago, two months ago, even last offseason, you know hi and bloom is making small moves, they are impactful moves they are, the future of this team looks a lot better than the short while ago.

Joe Malkin : 1:24:42

And the guys that come in to Tampa and then go to other teams always seem to have some kind of success. You know, it's kind of goes back to that minor league system thing, you know that these guys kind of figure out how to do it with less money. And now you got to do it the same way. But now you can spend a little bit more to keep those guys around a little bit longer.

Rob Kelly : 1:25:01

I feel like we need to let Craig chime in more because he brings us back down to earth and actually makes us feel like we're talking about real baseball instead of getting fantasy baseball. Yeah, exactly.

Michael Marcangelo : 1:25:11

I also think that once Alex core comes back to the team that will do better.

Joe Malkin : 1:25:18

I was excited about Ron renergie at first and I'm just like, you know what, give me Alex quarterback. I mean we can do it. a whole nother pod on on the 2017 Astros and the 2018 Red Sox and all those scandals but we're gonna cut this one off here. As we've gone to,

Michael Marcangelo : 1:25:35

I will have to say I'm looking forward to the day after the World Series when the season officially ends and outscores reintroduce as manager of Boston Red Sox. It's going to be instantaneous. Yeah.

Joe Malkin : 1:25:45

And that'll be one of the the points where I'm like, Alright, john Henry, like I can I feel you on this one. So, guys, we covered the NBA, the NHL, the MLB. I know that next week we're going to touch on the NFL is the NFL season begins on what is Thursday the 10th. We're excited about it. You know, we'll see everybody keeps saying we'll see how long this goes. But the MLB has kind of figured it out. And they've had some teams that have gotten in some trouble here. So

Rob Kelly : 1:26:14

only four positive tests.

Joe Malkin : 1:26:16

Yeah, and 77 false positives. That story blows me again, another pot. All right. Don't get me off. on a tangent Okay, guys, thank you for joining us here tonight on the ss w Podcast Episode Four. Again we touched on the Bruins getting bounced the Celtics dominating the Raptors, sorry Bobby and the and the Red Sox seemingly offseason moves since they clearly aren't doing anything in season. We hope you enjoyed listening to us rant and rave tonight. Again, part two of the championship. rewrap out now so make sure you head over but make sure you catch part two of the rewrap go download part one as well and give that a listen where we talk about the 2001 New England Patriots. We'll be talking about the 2003 New England Patriots coming up here shortly. But guys, thank you again can't wait to talk about the NFL next week. And also I do want to plug it because it's going to be happening after this is released but Thursday night we're going to be on Facebook Live doing a live fantasy football draft. For the SM SW podcast Fantasy Football League, it's kind of a fun one we got. It's interesting. It was that

Michael Marcangelo : 1:27:30

it's such a long name. It is.

Joe Malkin : 1:27:32

Well, I know, I know. But that's okay. That's what makes it more fun. So guys, again, thank you for joining us here tonight on the NSW podcast. We'll get back to talking with you on Thursday night during our fantasy draft. We'll be back next week talking NFL preview. And for Michael Mark Angelo, Bob Kelly, and the best EP that in the game. I was gonna say that we could find again I don't know why I go to that. But the best EP in the game. I'm Joe Malkin, your host makes me feel like less than No, you're the best executive.

Michael Marcangelo : 1:28:08

This concludes Episode Four of the SMS w podcast as Joe mentioned, I am Craig D'Alessandro executive producer of the SOS w network. This is your first time finding us welcome. We're thrilled to have you here with us. The show notes and transcript of today's episode can be found in the description box. Below, as well as our WordPress and buzzsprout pages, please consider subscribing. It's the easiest way to see when we publish new episodes. We are on iTunes, Spotify, Google, and wherever you generally find your podcast. Be sure to rate us and leave a review of any of our shows. We always appreciate your feedback. Follow us on social media. All of our links will be in the show notes. For all of us here at the ss w podcast. I'm Craig D'Alessandro. Thanks for listening.