Dan Shaughnessy from The Boston Globe

Craig D'Alessandro: 0:24

On this episode of missing point, we're joined by sports columnist and author Dan Shaughnessy from the Boston Globe. Daniel share some of his favorite stories over 40 years of covering all the Boston sports teams from the dominant Larry Bird led 1980s Boston Celtics to the 2004 curse breaking Boston Red Sox. We'll also get Dan's opinion on the current state of the Celtics and Red Sox, and how ownership and management have made some unforgiveable moves for both teams. This is Episode 48. But it's all relative.

Michael Marcangelo: 1:09

Welcome into missing the point I'm your host, Michael Mark Angelo joined alongside by Bob Kelly rayshawn Buchanan and today we have a very special guest. He has been a fixture in the Boston sports scene for five decades. His book The Curse of the Bambino details the heartache of the Boston Red Sox, and their search for World Series championship after selling Babe Ruth to the New York Yankees. He subsequently wrote reversing the curse after the Red Sox won in 2004. And in 2013, he in Cleveland Indians manager Terry Francona released Francona, a biography focusing on Fred Cohen his years as manager, the Red Sox. That book immediately became a best seller. He was named the 2016, recipient of the jG Taylor Spink award presented annually by the baseball Writers Association of America, for meritorious contributions to baseball writing. Ladies and gentlemen, please welcome Dan Shaughnessy. Dan, thank you so much for joining us. Nice to be here with you guys. Yeah, it's we're really excited to have you. And I want to talk a little bit about the Red Sox and the Celtics. We have a couple of cool tidbits about the Celtics that I want to hear from you. But first things first, I think, you know, a lot of people are on sports talk radio, now they kind of make it their job to be a contrarian. You were the original one in Boston. I so I love to learn or to hear about your story, especially when you're coming up, you know, with Bob Ryan, who is a fan writer, right? He's a great writer, but he feels all the emotions that the highs and the lows, and you made it a point to kind of run this like a business. So I'd love to hear about how that went.

Dan Shaughnessy: 2:40

Yeah, it's more I'm more detached than Bob and Bob's older than me. And I was reading him when I was in college and whatnot. And he's the greatest and he, his knowledge is unsurpassed, and he's a beautiful writer. But yeah, he's a season ticket holder, he comes to it as a fan, more kind of rooting for the teams, he's been critical. But when I came into it, my directors were that you were, you were objective. And I mean, none of us are really objective sports, we all have opinions. So we bring those to it. And that's the fun of it. But I just feel like, you know, my job isn't to root for the team. If I were recovering the presidential election, I'm not supposed to choose a candidate and do the analysis based on who I want to win. As much as give you the analysis of why it's gone the way it's going. And that's what I try to do. Sometimes the better story is when the home team loses. And like right now the Celtics are more interesting when they lose, because like this year, is not going to end well. I mean, it's not like there's going to be some turnaround. So when they play these games last night, if I'm right now, it's better when they lose because you can slam a more and it's more fun, and it's got more color and flavor. But so yeah, I'm not a fan of the team's. I'm a fan of the sports. I like it when the local teams are in the playoffs. I got 12 Parade covers here from page one when they win in this century. And it's always better when they when people buy books, and they have ideas. So that's good. But when things go bad when Plaxico Burress catches that past the end zone, they don't go 19. And oh, I can't be all brokenhearted and crying on my keyboard. So I can't write the story, I got to write that story and tell people why they didn't go undefeated. What happened here. And same thing, when you know, Aaron Boone hits the home run off Wakefield, or the ground ball goes through bucklers legs, those stories are epic, and you have to be able to write them under deadline in my case, and not be emotionally grieving. It's like, if you've been in the game, you're all pissed off, and you're mad at the umpire. So the officials when you're writing it, you don't want to be that guy, you should be able to bring analysis to it without the emotion of having your heart broken. So so that's the detachment that I bring to it that fewer and fewer people do now I understand that it's evolution. It's far more fans covering the teams now, like fans of the teams that are in the room, and I push back on that. But again, that's just the way things have evolved.

Michael Marcangelo: 4:56

Yeah, I just think about it, because you know, you were the reason that my dad used to actually get the Sunday globe. He always wanted to read you and then always wanted to read Bob Ryan, because they weren't all that they were totally polar opposite views. Right, but of the same thing. So I you know, you touched on the Celtics. I want to ask you a couple of questions about that. We'll get started there. You wrote an article back in the fall, saying the Celtics aren't as good as they thought as they think they are. how good you think they are right now.

Dan Shaughnessy: 5:23

It's really messy right now. I mean, you know, there's individual talent there clearly I mean Tatum's. The seal is really high for Tatum. He's great talent and browns better than I thought he would be. And so they're that it's two tremendous talents and smart as a guy, you always have to have in the floor, any team would want him. You can see those things. I love Thompson when he was in Cleveland, you know, in hell and rebounds just great. We know what kemba Walker was this a lot of individual champion, they're not as talented as they were. When Kyrie was there in Hayward, who was always hurt. And the two Jays were there. I mean, that's you think about that team. Now. They were really talented then. And they made the finals of the conference three times in for years. But right now, it's just it's messy, you can tell they don't really seem to like each other. They're not tough. They're so soft. At the end of these games, you can go over those games, Dallas, Chicago, Atlanta, last night, you just know it's not going to go well, they can have a one possession game and three minutes to go and the other team just kicks the crap out and they get all the 5050 balls and offensive rebounds. It's this is there's no way this is what Brad Stevens is telling him to do. So guys are just going off in their own it's a mess. So that

Rob Kelly: 6:33

leads me to my question is, in your opinion, whose fault is it then? Is it the players? You know, it's from what you just said? You don't seem to think it's Brad, because obviously Brad's not telling him listen, guys, go be soft and dog at the entire fourth quarter. Let's see some hairball. Jason, let's see that, you know. So what do you think? Where does the blame fall when it comes to this team?

Dan Shaughnessy: 6:53

Oh, Danny's got to be accountable for the roster building of what this team looks like. I think he probably botched the Hayward thing he got greedy on that. I mean, the the I think Danny is really great talent evaluator. And the drafting has been pretty good. And he has a great eye for talent. And so but this the the way this thing has been assembled, is not good. And there's not a lot of accountability there. Nobody ever blames. Nobody blames Danny, nobody blames Brad. They really don't advise the players either. Everybody's always just kind of fat and happy over there. Starting with ownership. It's an unusual franchise in our town, because any other team is doing this. You'd have people with pitchforks storming the gates right now.

Rob Kelly: 7:32

So I have a question about that too, is when it comes to Brad, and you say he's always happy and this team doesn't hold people accountable. To me. That's the one thing that drives me insane. is when you see them blow one of these leads. And Brad's up there still just played really hard tonight. We did this we did this Campbell is our guy. I love him. I love it when he says that, but it's like, when are we finally going to see that from Brad, do you think that's ever coming?

Dan Shaughnessy: 7:58

Is that the kind of coach he is? Or is that is just it's not him. That's why he's probably better off in college or high school, whatever. He's the, you know, Bula Bula guy, you're not going to get him. You know, turn it over the food spread in the room and just kicking ass. That's just not him. So maybe he's too nice for this. It doesn't help that he's not an X player. He's not pop. He's not a guy with all this gravitas to it. And it gets harder and harder to get guys to listen to you. So but he's he knows this is a failed experiment right now.

Rayshawn Buchanan: 8:27

Yeah, I mean, I sure hope he does. You know, obviously, you know, you know, back to your point about Danny, I hope Danny, you know, feels the same way. And you're Forrest is drafting. drafting goes. When it's a topic I feel like he does well. Right. So obviously Mark are smart as sets in 2014. You know, Jalen and Jays deal. They both were the number three pick and in respect to jazz, but if he has to draft anything past 14, is really a hit and miss from James Jones, you know, never saw Yeah, but sadly, it was just awful. But but it leads into the question I want to ask is, so you know, what do you think they can do in the short term to kind of change the course? Or do you think they should? You know, just wait to the offseason. So use the term player exception and just try to fill holes in the team. You know, they're

Dan Shaughnessy: 9:06

to your point, don't ever forget or forgive that. They took Kelly olynyk instead of Yanis.

Rayshawn Buchanan: 9:11

Oh, right. Yeah, that's who Right, exactly. That's another one. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. I try to forget that. Yeah.

Dan Shaughnessy: 9:17

Yeah, that's what like 15. So a lot of people passed on him. But still, it's one that we never let Danny forget, because Kelly was two picks ahead of him. I don't think they're going to use that trade exception. Why they got tonight or tomorrow. I mean, I just think this is a last year. I think they'll wait to the summer. Let it shake out. I don't think you're gonna see it. Now. I know. There's talk about the kid in Orlando. Let's talk about Collins. I don't see a move like that. I mean, I think that I think a shakeups in order in the summer shakeup. It could be Jalen brown getting traded something like that. You know, I mean, to me, that's still on the table. I don't know the contractual situations. And it confuses me and all that. But I think since they're not going to change Danny, or the ownership or the coach, you're going to have to shake up the roster. And what we'll do it more than a big move like that.

Michael Marcangelo: 10:03

So, what you know, you've been covering the Celtics for a long time, right? Has there ever been a period since you've been in town where they've had this much talent and underperformed this significantly?

Dan Shaughnessy: 10:14

Well, I mean, the this is a long time, the 83 team. They were swept by the Bucs in the playoffs, and they had four Hall of Famers. You know So the last four oh series, and they had McHale Parrish bird. They had tiny Archibald. As for Hall of Famers there, they were swept for straight as pretty bad but they were they won 57 games during the season. So they weren't chumps. And they won the championship the next year when they acquired Dennis Johnson. But that would be the closest to being a dysfunctional was the end of the term for billfish for this, which coaches and some things had to happen. And it was a really dark days in the 70s when they had you know, McAdoo and Curtis row and Sidney wicks. And it was some dysfunction going on there. The end for Collins, all that stuff. But this is a really impure This is a hard team to watch. Yeah, they are so soft. At the end of these games, it just makes you want to kill yourself.

Rob Kelly: 11:09

I'll never forget that pelicans game is the one that stands out to me. Because even up 21, I was watching my dad up 21 I looked right at him. And when they're gonna lose this game, he's like, What are you talking about? I'm like, are you watching? It's just It's so obvious sometimes. And you know, it's coming. I was telling these guys, I've made a good amount of fake money off this team this year, because of how predictable they really are when it comes to when they lose and when they win. If this team is favored in a game against the underachieving team, I bet against them 100% of the time, and I win 100% of the time, they're just so predictable and soft. I couldn't agree more

Michael Marcangelo: 11:47

before we kind of transition to baseball, because we want to really pick your brain here. I did stumble upon a pretty cool story. And I was wondering if you could give us a little insight into it, Dan. So 1985 Easter Conference Finals, you notice that Larry Bird is taped to have his fingers together. And that I think you made the comment that it might be a little bit harder for him to shooter shooting percentage would go down. And he challenged you to a free throw shooting contest with with one of his hands wrapped. So I'd love just to hear a first person kind of how that went.

Dan Shaughnessy: 12:17

Well, it's now that we can I can sell a little product here. And I just wrote a book, the books called I wish it lasted forever beyond November. So I had that team for four years every day. And in those days, it was nobody's fault. But the way it was then we live with them. We traveled, we waited for bags, hotels, buses, practice, everything was like being on the team without the groupies of the fame of the money. But other than that it was the same thing. So then we were and you just got to know him and we were able to tell the readers what they were like and it's very rare tie so yeah, they call me scoop. That was my nickname. whenever I'd come into the locker room, yell I'd say scoop God knows how quiet I guess you walk in here, you know and it was true you know, cuz nobody trusted me it was you know, very good system we had. So yeah, he was taping it like this it practice hit. There had been a barroom fight two nights earlier, and he might have had a broken bone, I don't know. But if you look up his playoff shooting, he shot 52% that year, it was his middle year of his three straight MVPs height of his powers, the 60 point game, all that stuff buzzer beaters left and right. And he got into virome fight messed up his hand he shot like 42% of the nine playoff games after this happen. These taping it like this it practice and I said after I said you can play in a game like that. Right? He said scoop I could take my hand up, make more shots view. And I'm like, that's probably true. But that's not what we're talking about here. And it was almost like a pool hustler thing. He kind of must have done it before. So they taped his hand like this and done was taped. It was like I get a boxing glove on. And we did 100 years. He said we'll do 100 free throws $5 to throw 10 shots around and says you want to go first Raghav I said I'll go first he said you don't like the pressure d i said That's right. So I went first I made six hours of good free throw shooter high school, I sat I was a player but I could shoot free throws, and six out of 10 just standing around. And he made six out of 10 doing this. And then by the time we get to the third round, because I was rebounding and they were all going to his he said I figured this out he did. And he had to make an 86 with his hand like that 86 out of 100 and I started joking because I'm seeing $5 bills flying through the air anytime you go here now. And so I lost $160 and went to the Old Bay bank and got a 20s out of the ATM. Next night he was doing his early shooting I gave him his money stuffed in a sock you play with my 820s in a sock that night and I expense this because I wrote a funny story about it and I told my boss I got the story came at some cost I had to incur some expenses here. And evidently the word wager is frowned upon by the IRS so it bounced back from the county. So we switched it to a $20 lunches Robert Parrish and his father today and I got my money back but thanks for asking.

Rayshawn Buchanan: 15:03

You're welcome. Actually, you keep up with that same year because I know you brought the game over you score the sixth day gets Atlanta and New Orleans like How was that? Can I see Do you see the highlights but I'm like the highlights doesn't do it justice man. Like just how was that game and just like how hot was he? And just like was it really what the what the Atlanta Hawks are really just like just fawning over how good he was last year. just falling over the band he

Dan Shaughnessy: 15:25

was he was like invincible that year he was at the height of his trash talking powers, he would tell guys what he was going to do and the inbounds pass, then he would do it. He started banking three pointers just because he could for the fun of it, put his hand out for cash running down the other end of the floor. And McHale had gotten 56. Nine days earlier. Yeah, I guess you had short. Yeah, I was speeding because Larry hated Kent Benson who was an Indiana guy who disrespected him in college. So he led McHale torch campaigns to get him ejected from the game, kept feeding the kale the ball and Kevin got to 56 and he came out with like a minute to go. And I said, well, Dad, you should stay in there because I'm going to get that. And then nine days later, we're in New Orleans, because the Hawks played home games in New Orleans because they wouldn't sell out the army in Atlanta. So we stayed at the New Orleans Hyatt and took a bus went by Rick Robbie's High School on the way and Roby went to Kentucky, which was pissed off Larry, because Kentucky didn't recruit Larry Bird, they thought he was too slow. So they took Roby, who was even slower. And Larry said it was all bribes. So we went by the high school so that's where Porter got all those bribes when he was in high school, right? all fired up. And they get to the gym, and it was all Celtic fans in New Orleans that night. And uh, yeah, they put the press right behind the Hawks bash, we were a little elevated, you can wait, we can see ourselves on that. And Mike fratello was the head coach, you know, short little guy. And Ricky Brown was a guy who had been a Celtic draft, he was on a team with Dominic Wilkins. They had this great players, a Doc Rivers on that team. And it kind of grew. And then by the fourth quarter in the Hawks bench, they were a bunch of knuckleheads you know, and they were like leaning into each other and celebrating and fall down and Larry started like, going over to that side and just shooting right in front of them and just pointing to them and all that video I mean, they're not making it up. It's true that the Hawks are actually fined for that.

Rayshawn Buchanan: 17:12

Oh, yeah. As they should have this there's no way you should be celebrating

Dan Shaughnessy: 17:15

as bad and I fatality kept switching guys. He kept changing man and trying everything and fellow he got into a fight with Ricky Brown. We saw the whole thing. And when it was over, the GM of the Hawks came into the southern locker room with the game bald head Larry sign it. It was like a souvenir for the Hawks. Yeah, just dropped 50 in our heads, you know, it was like, Yeah, that'll happen. You know, what, what,

Rayshawn Buchanan: 17:36

what an honor, right?

Rob Kelly: 17:38

Is he the only player that you've ever seen reach that level, where he starts just playing around in the middle of games?

Dan Shaughnessy: 17:47

Yeah, the talking was off the charts. We could hear it because in those days, we said I've got pictures I'm using in this book where we're sitting right, you know where they were those people pay 1000 bucks now like we were there with our table right there. And the worst was the Julius Erving. Julius was 36 years old and Larry was the middle of this three year MVP at the height of his powers. And now Julius want to toy with Larry Bird in his heyday. But he was cooked and Larry was dominant. He was bigger and stronger. And Larry had like 38 in the second half, or 38 by the third quarter. Julius was like one Funnye and Larry was just get somebody out here. Oh, man, you can't go with me. And finally Julius went for his throat is a famous picture that they're grabbing each other by the throat and it was a Donnybrook and did not end well. I love it

Rayshawn Buchanan: 18:33

that could never have been now it guys would be kicked out the league, you know? Oh my god. Well, it makes you look like like Crimea. Washington right back in the day. We did too. Oh, yeah. Four different regions.

Dan Shaughnessy: 18:42

Take a look at the McHale takedown of Rambis in game for the 84 finals. When McHale comes across the floor and clotheslines, Rambis, Rambis, his foot almost hits the rim, he still up ended. And it was two shots, there was not even a flagger rule, then they had to change the rules all around on that. So comment that did happen and

Rayshawn Buchanan: 19:00

come a foul. Right, exactly.

Michael Marcangelo: 19:03

So, you know, you've been part of so many legendary moments in Boston, but I don't think there's ever been one more important than the 2004 World Series. Right. So before the Sox win that I want to ask you a question. It's one of the race questions is before that World Series in the cursor is reversed, which Red Sox playoff moment gave you the biggest heartbreak as someone who's either a fan of the sport or covering the team? You know,

Dan Shaughnessy: 19:27

I kind of I'm not old enough to have been there in the 40s and all that stuff happened but so I was at the Bucky dent game and 78 that was crazy. And that was horrible for Boston because they had had a 14 game lead and they blew it and ended up in a tie and one game playoff and her to nothing lead in the sixth sixth and he was awful. And then the bacter games the worst one because you know again, it wasn't game seven people think it was but you know they're they're one strike away from winning the World Series and had one in 68 years. It's against the Mets. It was Saturday night Shea Stadium. And the game's over, they got five three leaders two outs, nobody on base, the bottom of the 10th all you gotta do is get one more out. And then three straight singles wild pitch and in the air. That was the worst boxers likes because the World Series was over. They had won and they somehow astronomically lost and of course the Aaron Boone game because you know pay that's great. He left Pedro in too long. And it was a lot of tension at that time. The teams was so popular a rivalry Got a big fight to who's going to get a rod and all this stuff went down, and was never a greater rivalry than by Oh 304 when it was going on then. So having witnessed those three was a lot to bring into the four C's when of course, they're down three out of the Yankees, it's still the greatest bosses Blitz story. And the first patriots Super Bowl is pretty darn good. But the socks going, you know, at six years, being down three out of the Yankees in the ALCS. With a rod having been on both teams, technically, and just all the fights. They hadn't been ball stuff they hadn't the great players, you know, Manny and David and Jeter. And that was the height of it. Yeah.

Rob Kelly: 21:01

That brings me to an article that you wrote right before game four of that day. I'll see. Similar thing. Similar thing. Yeah, I got to ask you, man, what did he say to you? Because I know, there's the clip where he's saying, you know, Dan, you call this fraud? You did this. We're not a fraud. We're gonna win tonight. Was there more to it? Or is that what happened?

Dan Shaughnessy: 21:23

Well, I mean, the article I shelf is stuff here. It was, it was a hypothetical. So they lost game three, they lost 19 to eight and game three there, Dallas Rio. That would that was a great team. That team was a wagon. And they were down 302, the Yankees the ALCS losing 19 to eight, and people were throwing shit at them and booing them, it was bad. And so the next day is game four, and they're going to go on down, like, just diets is horrible. So I in the paper, I said, if they get swept, they will go down as the biggest pack of frauds in Boston sports history. That statement was true, then it's true today. It's a hypothetical. If I were seven feet tall, I would have been in the NBA. You know, I mean, it's you say it said if they lose again, they go down as frost? Well, they didn't. They won eight straight games from the moment I wrote that. And they swept away the World Series. So anyway, it was true. That is true now and Muller was saying that stuff, that whole thing about Don't let us win tonight. He was saying that to everybody, you know, and his whole thing about shell and Pedro and anything can happen in game seven. He was just saying that to everybody. And what I think that was ESPN 30 for 30. But they had the crew following everybody around and we went hard to do that night, you know, Theo was hung over and it was a lot of it was just a bad time for them. And nobody thought what was going to happen was going to did happen, but somehow I was just talking up everybody and did a good job with it. And so that clip lives on in infamy and I'm actually quite proud of it.

Rob Kelly: 22:53

You should be because because it's awesome. It gives me goosebumps every time I see a dance so I love it.

Rayshawn Buchanan: 22:59

Just still kind of keep the theme with the past. So another question that I thought about you know what, I love to talk about different scenarios or whatever so so if you could put together a starting nine, you know, front all Red Sox team, like what would you have on it?

Dan Shaughnessy: 23:11

Oh, that's good at rayshawn I think I did that few years ago and I'm trying to remember now so this is the catcher Hall of Fame. You guys played Boggs at third Hall of Famer. And we got the outfield we got Jim rice. Carl Yastrzemski and Ted Williams are Hall of Famers, Bobby doors second baseman Hall of Famer Jamie Foxx, the first base Hall of Famer, the show staff Joe Cronin, those are all Hall of Famers. And Pedro would be your starting pitcher. So you got there's nine Hall of Famers and David Ortiz would be your DHD will be in a Hall of Fame. So that'd be 10 players right there.

Rayshawn Buchanan: 23:42

When many VA honorable mention cut on my I was like, you know,

Dan Shaughnessy: 23:45

that's more than fair. Because Manny's he's a better hitter than than Carly Stravinsky or Jim rice. I mean, he just is, but yeah, you know, the with the three time rights thing, he's not going to get the Hall of Fame. But as a pure hitter. Yeah. And defensively. Rice was not good either. Man. He certainly serviceable out there,

Rayshawn Buchanan: 24:03

right. I mean, plus, I know Rice was also MVP. I don't think many of them won MVP

Dan Shaughnessy: 24:07

man. He never did. Rice had fought in six total basis. 78, which hadn't been done in 30 years. So I think for pure hitting, I would take Manny Manny was just you know, man, he was Jimmy Foxx is a pure right handed here.

Rayshawn Buchanan: 24:20

And I was thinking man, he was our guy. So I mean, it makes sense that, you know, obviously, you know, he saw your shrimps. He saw his yes to you the best left field, it was a tag

Dan Shaughnessy: 24:28

for all around defensively. But uh, you know, he's only like a career to 85 hitter. I mean, he's a little, he just had a lot of compiled numbers like longevity. And 67 was the greatest single season of any red sox player, you know, Triple Crown MVP defensive Gold Glove. Seventh Game of the World Series just has all you know, he's seven frayed last two games, they had to win all that stuff. But the he was never he didn't have a five year stretch like Native America said, You know, I mean, hardly anybody. Ted Williams did, but any.

Rayshawn Buchanan: 24:59

Right, right, exactly. I know what Mandy like I know, like before he got to Boston, he had a season we had like 165 rounds about

Dan Shaughnessy: 25:05

it and he was nuts. Go look at the go look at the Cleveland team and he was hitting seven through Cleveland team.

Rayshawn Buchanan: 25:11

They had Allah Howard

Dan Shaughnessy: 25:13

Bell, Eddie Marino, may you know Roberto Alomar you know, marva scale is one of the greatest teams of all time it's in when

Michael Marcangelo: 25:20

you just mentioned nine Hall of Famers. And then you mentioned David Ortiz. On this question, does David Ortiz get into the Baseball Hall of Fame? And how does he but not Barry Bonds?

Dan Shaughnessy: 25:32

Well, David sailin. Everybody loves David. So I agree with the sentiment of what I think you're asking. I think it's unfair. And I think, for me, you either let them all in or you don't let anybody in. Yep. And so far I've been don't let any of them in. So I won't be voting for David. But he's getting in. And I understand why. And the numbers are certainly there. But to your question, yeah. I mean, I don't think Barry's any dirty. And David was, if you want to go down that path, I mean, it's just but this was the this the times they played in, and a lot of people don't care about, and I understand that.

Rayshawn Buchanan: 26:05

What about Clemens, then?

Rob Kelly: 26:07

Yeah, I was just gonna say if we're gonna open that door.

Rayshawn Buchanan: 26:10

Tommy Clemens? I mean, his wrestling career alone to me. Is Hall of Fame worthy. Yes. Oh, 192

Dan Shaughnessy: 26:15

days three sounds the Red Sox, but I don't vote for him. Because I again, I've been on the wall. I don't vote for any of them. I love Roger, you know, he's great. He did a lot of good things here. And I mean, he's one of the top 10 pitchers of all time, by any measure. I mean, guy won 354 games, and seven Cy Young awards. Give me a break. I wish he hadn't used at the edge. We extend extended win unnecessarily. You know?

Rob Kelly: 26:38

I have a question about that, though. So that whole era, right? is everyone's tainted from it, no matter what, for that whole 90s 2000s era. Anyone who's ever going to get into the Hall of Fame is always going to kind of have that cloud over them in that era? Don't you just think that a simple solution could be his Letterman, but make sure it's on the plaque. Make sure it's indicated that they're in? Yeah, but this happened. And this is a question that we have about it. There's still one of the best players ever

Dan Shaughnessy: 27:06

again, a Hall of Fame. That includes Trevor Hoffman and Harold Baines, and does not include barry bonds. And Roger Clemens, it's a little ridiculous, you know, so we know that. But that's the hand that's dealt. It's unfortunate. And and my fear is that bonds and Clemens are going away forever. Next year. So last year in the valley for them, they don't they're not getting the momentum. I don't think the old timers will vote for them. And it's, it's a big gap to not have those guys in the Hall of Fame because they were better than everybody in the time they played. They were

Michael Marcangelo: 27:33

How ironic is it that the players that really saved the game for everyone in the 90s right, so so you have wire and barry bonds that are ostracized and kept out for doing the thing that propelled the sport back into the fandom, right? And there's a very likelihood that Piazza Pudge Rodriguez,

Dan Shaughnessy: 27:51

a Bagwell, we're all using because they all look dirty, and they're all in but they didn't test or they didn't have. They're not in the Mitchell report. They didn't have the stigma that these other guys have

Rob Kelly: 28:02

I thought Pudge well I thought Pudge was on the Mitchell report was any hydride Regus?

Rayshawn Buchanan: 28:06

I don't remember how to be I know palmero camera was but I mean, but back one particular moment cuz then he stopped here that he got drafted by a restaurant that was traded by the Red Sox. Yeah. So I mean, if you look at him how small he was early on, and then by the time they became the killer bees, you know, were him Vizio and Berkman. It was like, Oh, this this guy really was a wagon for the wrong reason.

Dan Shaughnessy: 28:27

That's good. Good knowledge for young guys. I'm impressed you. Thank you.

Rob Kelly: 28:31

Appreciate it, man. Thank you. Thank you.

Craig D'Alessandro: 28:33

Someone say we're not so young anymore. But

Rayshawn Buchanan: 28:35

yeah. Right.

Michael Marcangelo: 28:42

So Dan, what are your expectations of the 2021 Red Sox now that Alex core is back?

Dan Shaughnessy: 28:47

I like Alex, I don't hold that against him. I mean, probably we should more than we do. And people is he's just, he's just really he's a good guy. And he's good to be around. He was cheating. I don't know. I just can't get all the big lather about they're used to

Rob Kelly: 29:01

a Boston by now.

Dan Shaughnessy: 29:02

I wouldn't vote for him. I wouldn't vote him into the hall. Right. But as a manager, given the shit show they got here and a horrible decision making and the cheapness up top and what they're doing to the franchise. He's good for them. These players like him. They respond to him. him being bilingual is huge. A guy like Devin who get way more out of diverse just isn't I would want to play for him. You know he's just a good guy to play for. I just started pitching is very suspect of still in my view can make a case but everything's got to go just right. And people like get all in a lot about Oh, Nathan ivaldi throws 100 he's won nine games here in three years. He's always hurt. Everyone just remembers

Rob Kelly: 29:44

that one run.

Dan Shaughnessy: 29:45

Yeah, he had one one great postseason performance in a game which they lost by the way, and and he only makes $70 million or over for you for four years. So good for Nathan ivaldi good guy. Maybe he'll finally get healthy and win a team for you because he's got that ability we know. You know, anyway, Regus coming off the COVID my the cardiac thing hopefully.

Rob Kelly: 30:08

Is your opening day starter too.

Dan Shaughnessy: 30:10

Yeah. Richards i mean he's never been a winner. He's been hurt all the time. That it looks is one like eight games in like five years and Perez is a meatball artists he pitches to contact as they say, you know,

Rayshawn Buchanan: 30:22

I mean he Yeah. Which is cool for

Rob Kelly: 30:24

us. Yeah, so he's Derek Lowe. 2.0.

Dan Shaughnessy: 30:28

He finds a lot of bats

Rayshawn Buchanan: 30:29

now, Derek Lowe was much better than mine person was much better shots, right?

Rob Kelly: 30:34

No, I know. Yeah.

Rayshawn Buchanan: 30:36

Yeah. Well, I mean, what about okay? I mean, just I mean, yeah. Well, I would still want to keep with the current team, right. So obviously this guy, this one guy was one of the main pieces coming back in the muki. Best trade last year. How do you feel about Alex for Google? I'm a fan. He was much better last year than I thought he was going to be. So do you think he's someone that can be a mainstay here going forward?

Dan Shaughnessy: 30:55

I like what I saw last year, I was pleasantly surprised. I was bothered at the Dodgers gave up on him the way they do where they did, I thought, you know, they didn't have to, they didn't have to give up anything in that deal. That was the Red Sox were driven to get rid of payroll. So it's not like they the Dodgers were in a position of strength and they gave him up very readily. that bothered me. You know, he's a little dirty and and that sex scandal thing they had there. There's something not right about that has never been fully explained. So I hope he's got everything on the straight and narrow and it's all good. He is a character. We haven't been able to be right what little I saw we were around him. I liked I think players respond to these very cocky kid, you know, and and his ability I'd love to swing. And I just I don't think he's as good as he thinks he is. or his fans think he is right now. But there's something there. I just, I'm reluctant to to anoint him just yet. Because so many things. I mean, Carl ever was the best player you ever saw for like, four months at the beginning of the 98th season, whatever. Yeah.

Rayshawn Buchanan: 31:54

Yeah. And so the head butted the referee, umpire. It was over.

Dan Shaughnessy: 31:59

It has this kid's got something and hopefully it gets steered in the right direction.

Michael Marcangelo: 32:04

So Dan, you just said that we really know our stuff. I appreciate that hope. Do you still feel this way? After I asked this question, because it just came to my mind. You know, the Red Sox Yankees rivalry was so great up until 2004. Right? So would you rather have those days of that rivalry being at that peak? Or still win that World Series and have it go away? Because it's not there anymore? I don't think that the common generation really cares about Red Sox Yankees as much as they used to?

Dan Shaughnessy: 32:31

You know, it's a really good question. I think that, you know, we always said when it when they won, it'll never be the same. And it hasn't been. And it sucks now, because they're bordering on irrelevance. But I do think that there's almost nothing they could have done to have avoided where we are now, just the way the game has trended the slowness of it. Young people with their devices and the speed with which they want it, how it's not the friend of fantasy. It's just, it's people's attention spans, it doesn't lend itself to today's today's young people. And I understand that, it's asking a lot. So the older fans are dying off and not going to be replaced. And that's bad. So I don't think there's much the Sox could have done about. So I'll take those years when we had them. And say that that was the height of that. And it was never going to be as good again, no matter what they did with drafting or signing or trading or whatever, I just don't think they could have sustained the level of intensity that we have on that thing. is just too much to sustain.

Michael Marcangelo: 33:29

Yeah, I just remember like every game mattered and like, Oh, 304 even Oh, two when they missed the playoffs, and they went 93 and 69, right, like they had a pretty they were pretty relevant and for that three year stretch. And now if you would have told me that 17 years later, that people in this area would value them below the Bruins, patriots, it's wild to me I think storylines are what are what keeps people invested. And they just haven't been able to keep that up. I think you know what the Yankees winning and and having that nice little rivalry with the Phillies in? Oh, 809. That was fun, but we've never come across them again. So do you think that it's like the flick of a switch that if we see the Yankees in the ALCS, we can tap into it again, you could approximate but you'd never get to get to that level again.

Dan Shaughnessy: 34:11

It would just be better than now. But you're not going to go back to that level

Rayshawn Buchanan: 34:16

ever. Well, I mean, we did I know we faced him in 2018 and division around is the only moment or the two moms I remember most of that series is the JD Martinez home run and game one and then obviously Brock Holt getting the home run to complete the cycle. And I mean, basically that crowding at standing was dead, right? Like it's not the same, where you know, Yankee Stadium is not the same as it was in in oh three and oh, four obviously it's a new fans like Like you said, but yeah, man. I mean, even I was even thinking about that 99 series to like, Roger rock, like, you're never gonna get that. That is bad. Well,

Dan Shaughnessy: 34:52

the greatest thing for me was the Saturday when the Yanks one here and Sanchez hit a home run to centerfield one of the longest home runs ever and judged I'm sure shared that night and it was the night judge went by with New York, New York and the jukebox by the Sox, by the Sox clubhouse here with the boombox and that was like the highlight of the series and the Red Sox just went there just kicked the crap out of them. Oh, that runs that was it? Yeah,

Rob Kelly: 35:18

that team was so good though. Which, which? I do question I have to ask you. Monkey Batman. So them giving up monkey bats. I've, I thought, in my opinion, I was gonna watch monkey bats at a Red Sox uniform until I was in my 40s and 50s. Like, I thought this dude was gonna be a mainstay, he was one of the best players I've ever seen in Red Sox uniform. And all of a sudden, it's the team that makes the most money in baseball, is cutting payroll and can't pay the student. But can you make that make sense to me? Like I know, you said that they were going to give them up for nothing. And they actually got a good return for him. But like, why did that have to happen? Was it did mukhi not want to be here? Like what was the case?

Dan Shaughnessy: 35:57

Yeah, I have no forgiveness for them. So don't misinterpret what I said earlier. Like, they've tried to get the local media to push the narrative. Well, he wasn't staying anyway. So we had to do it, we could do that. That's bullshit. If you read his thing, it's GQ right now, like he was buying a house here, they wouldn't meet his price they wouldn't pay, they wouldn't meet his price. That's was it, it was all about money. And I understand that it was his time to strike. He did, they weren't willing to meet it. And then, you know, they finished in last place with the worst team since 1965, the Dodgers won the World Series, they got exactly what they deserved. And that thing will never be right. There's no excuse for it, if you're gonna own the Boston Red Sox, and have an investment of 700 million turn into 7 billion in 20 years, then you have to keep that asset. And you have to invest in that and overpay if that's what it takes, so that the second half of the contract will be rendered meaningless and all that stuff say that, but don't have Tom warning around and say what what idiots the Dodgers are for doing this and the money won't be worth it in 15 years, whatever. Bullshit, you know, it's a Red Sox are more than a business. They're their public domain, you know, public entity, public trust, that that whoever owns it has to value that and they had to it was incumbent on them to keep them that's on them, share with them and David Price. They're paying 69 for David Price to pitch for the Dodgers this year. And last year, same pitch, but it's like the salary dumps for the Boston Red Sox unforgiveable. And they're going to tell you that we have the third highest payroll this year, so stop it. But that's because of all the dead money, which is price. podria. Ben attendee they have dead money that's on them. Of all the effect is dead money. It's 17 million for not a lot for three wins. Yeah. Oh, Chris sale they gave the money to so bad decisions. don't discount don't take away the notion that they're cheaped out every option they've had over the last 12 months, they've gone to the lowest salary guy except for Richards, that we don't know if he's any good or not.

Michael Marcangelo: 37:52

They did the same thing with last year though, right? Remember when he went over when he laughed? And I said, Well, we wouldn't. He wouldn't have said if we tried and then

Dan Shaughnessy: 37:59

they overpay for price and sale? After not given less of the money. Right?

Michael Marcangelo: 38:03

How about you just try? I know that we're kind of wrapping up here. Dan, I wanted to ask you my final question. You know, we've seen over the last I think it's been rapidly over the last 20 years that print media has really just taken a backseat and those that were prominent before are no longer right. There's been a big follow up now everyone is a an influencer, which pisses me off. How do you think you have managed to stay at the top of your game and so relevant through all these changes?

Dan Shaughnessy: 38:30

Well, I mean, there'll be some argument to the relevance of myself at this time by a portion of the population out there and that's okay. That's okay. Like, I'm not relevant on talk radio anymore. They want young hot takes and all that and that's fine. I had enough of that, you know, but you know, so but then the globe they my audience is older, but there's an I think even the haters kind of keep the thing going and sustain a little bit so and but the takes are, they are how I feel at the time. They're not generated to click be clickbait or it's just how I feel at the time. And some of it's provocative for people. But it's just sports, we should be able to argue about Manny Ramirez and Jim rice and not dislike each other. I've always said that it's not. It's okay. That's what sports is supposed to be. So I'm good with it. I appreciate the question on the print thing like, like one thing, like we talked about this Duxbury high thing I used to be you could go do a high school story on the quarterback in Marshfield, he could change his life by being in the Boston Globe. Can't do that anymore. Like That guy is already online. He's got, you know, houpt.com, or whatever in their lives or their lives, and they don't care about us. And I understand that. So we don't have the platform or the reach that we used to have. I'm okay with it. It's evolution. You can't bet the moon, like barstool is more popular than we are. And I don't like that. But there's nothing I can do about it. So I just skate my lane here and doing the best I can. And I, you know, it's I have energy about it. I like the sports. I love the platform. And you know, writing a book on 40 years ago, the Celtics was really fun. And people will actually read it because the Larry Bird story. So, again, I'm blessed. I got to read and talk about sports for 40 years in this market, with 12 championships in this century and in some of the losses and just in you know, young folks like yourselves who know so much about sports and still want to talk about it. So I just feel really lucky and blessed about it. And I try not to complain too much about it's not the way it used to be because too bad. It's things evolve.

Michael Marcangelo: 40:24

Well, obviously, thank you so much for for taking the time before we let you go. We want to always let you tell people where they can find you. And you already give us a little bit of a preview of an upcoming book in November. So please tell the listeners out there where they can find you and what they can expect from you over the next couple of months

Dan Shaughnessy: 40:39

without a 711 and get the Boston Globe tomorrow morning. live with that.

Rayshawn Buchanan: 40:46

Right, right.

Dan Shaughnessy: 40:48

No, but no, so I boston.com whatever the hell Boston globe.com whatever we are, and I'm on Twitter, Dan underscore Shaughnessy on Twitter. And yeah, I wish it lasted forever as Simon and Schuster Scribner publishers, November old days with the Celtics and Larry Bird and all that stuff. But you guys are fun. It was nice. Nice chat with you guys. I wish you luck with the program.

Michael Marcangelo: 41:07

Well, Dan, thank you so much. Thank you all for listening to this episode of missing the point. So for Rachel Buchanan, Bob Kelly and Dan Shaughnessy. This is Michael mark. Angela signing off.